delete

I’m not a nutritionist, but calcium carbonate is a widely recommended calcium source for horses in guidelines from seemingly reputable sources (e.g. Texas A & M recommendations for feeding growing horses). Even if availability is low compared to other sources on a percentage basis, so what if you feed enough of it and it’s practical to do so. Plucking random numbers out of the air for a fictitious substance as an example, does it really matter if you pay ten bucks a month to feed 100 g a day of substance A and it ALL gets absorbed, vs. five bucks a month and feed 500 g of cheap, locked up substance A that has one fifth the bioavailability? The horse is still absorbing 100 g a day and you are paying less. Who cares if 400 g a day is getting pooped out as long as it’s not harmful to the environment or anything?

On casual non-nutritionist poking around, I’m not finding specific information on bioavailability of calcium carbonate vs. other types of calcium in HORSES. Maybe it’s awful. Maybe it’s just fine. You can’t go by people information, we have very different digestive systems, though. Grass has awful bioavailability of just about everything for us, including simple caloric content yet it’s the main component of a normal horse diet.

5 Likes

The National Research Council (NRC) Nutrient Requirements for Horses has lots of studies referenced
https://www.nap.edu/read/11653/chapter/7#79

The whole book is there online, an excellent resource :yes:

What Is your thinking that a ration balancer is better suited? What would it provide vs a supplement?

Because the good ones fit your criteria, and in meaningful amounts. Significant protein, high levels of the limiting amino acids and both macro and trace minerals, and vitamins. Other than the molasses deal, but without knowing why you are avoiding that…

Also, can you give your analysis of the Arenus product instead of PP? PP was listed as an example. That would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Lots of stuff. Some at decent to good levels such as vit E, biotin, methionine, and others are “why bother” levels, such as lysine, threonine, magnesium. There are also things in there that make it sound good, but don’t provide real value, such as histidine, an essential, but not limiting amino acid, for which there hasn’t ever been a documented deficiency.

It’s not a worthless supplement, but probably pretty price because of “look at all the stuff it’s got in it”

At $1.11 for a 1-scoop serving, at the 55lb size, and a 901-1350lb horse in moderate work needs 1.5-2.5 scoops, that’s u[ to $2.78 a day :eek:

Thanks for the book. This is perfect. I will give it a read later today.

As for ration balancer vs supplement, could you expand on the difference? I am still not clear what the difference is. Also, if you could recommend the good ones you referenced. Thanks.

Price wise I am more than happy to pay for a superior product. This discussion has been fruitful to defining what that means.

You mention deficiency. Are you aware of any research in horses exploring optimal levels instead? Perhaps it is in the book?

Thanks.

I just saw on fb that horsetech has come out with a blend for southern states, it looks really good. Vitamins and minerals plus a good dose of E and also amino acids.

1 Like

I think it’s important to remember that horses can survive on forage and don’t need a ton of extra stuff, only what they are most likely to be deficient in.

Poulin is very popular in my area. Besides protein, the ration balancer has basically copper, zinc, selenium, A and E, omegas, and a probiotic. I feel like that’s pretty sufficient for 99% of horses.

But great suggestions. High point, equi-vm, KIS trace, CA Trace, all very reasonably priced. The Poulin ration balancer is about 50 cents a day ($25 for 50 pounds).

Yes, I understand your thinking. I have read some math like this in an article last year defending MgO’s low bioavailability vs that of citrate/glycinate. But, as I recall, cost was a major factor AND it was in the context of free feeding salt.

I asked for the study as I was hoping to find specifics to help me make a decision. There is an upper limit. 500g (random number but using this as an example) is a lot to feed a day. Further I know professionally that MgO is a digestive irritant in humans. In horses that may or may not apply, but potentially presents another upper limit in that aspect also.

If you could link me the source stating CaCO3 is highly recommended for horses, preferably with specifics or pointing to specifics, I would take a look into it as well.

Thanks.

I’m not sure what you’re not clear on LOL Here’s a little homework that will help you see the difference.

Look at the amount of the following, in a serving of Platinum Performance, and a serving of Triple Crown 30:

  • lysine
  • methionine
  • calcium
  • phosphorous
  • copper
  • zinc
  • magnesium

Those are top limiting AAs, 2 macro minerals which are important when looking to make sure the horse is getting enough, and in balance, based on average hays (grass hay in this case), and some of the main trace minerals we get concerned about

Also, if you could recommend the good ones you referenced. Thanks.

Any balancer will do. Personally, I prefer Triple Crown because of a higher level of most nutrients, and a good gut support package, including the Billions of CFUs needed to really make a difference

You mention deficiency. Are you aware of any research in horses exploring optimal levels instead? Perhaps it is in the book?

Thanks.

Ahhh, optimal levels. This is where research falls short, and something the NRC talks about here and there with certain nutrients, stating research has shown what’s need to be “healthy” as in not sick, but not necessarily what’s needed for optimal health. For example, horses need at least 1IU/lb vitamin E. That’s to avoid an obvious deficiency, which could still take months or years to manifest, depending on other factors. Many researchers tend to think 2IU/lb is more of an optimal level, and we know that some of the harder working horses need more, in the 3-4UI/lb range.

I just heard about this today too, so don’t know anything about it, really, other than I heard it’s fairly pricey for what it appears to be. I definitely want to see what it is just to know

Surviving shouldn’t be the goal. Thriving should be the goal. But you’re right in that many horses tend to be over-fed, and even then, under-nourished in certain areas. Sometimes getting the stuff they’re most likely to be deficient in means also adding things they may not be, but also adding them in amounts that aren’t going to create a toxicity situation either

Besides protein, the ration balancer has basically copper, zinc, selenium, A and E, omegas, and a probiotic. I feel like that’s pretty sufficient for 99% of horses.

Nutrient-wise, yes, balancers to get most horses pretty close, that’s their goal, just like regular feeds. The difference is in calories, and I do think more than 1% of horses need more calories. But even then, it’s likely most horses would benefit from additional copper and zinc, in the US anyway, simply because so much soil tends to be high in iron. Think of alllll the sunscreen, UV fly sheets, etc, people spend money on, when there’s a good chance that most of most of their issues could be helped with adding copper and zinc :slight_smile:

1 Like

OK, what is the equivalent of a human multivitamin?

Daily Dose Carbbuster (avail on Chewy), Modesto milling Horse Supplement, Arizona Copper complete.

1 Like

As an update: I have looked into this section of the book, and additionally into this specific study. It is an old study from 1980. It is on foals and the absorption of inorganic Mg2+ sources, MgO included. It states that the absorption rate is 70%. It also states that this data applies to foals only and also states that foals have a higher rate of absorption than mature horses.

Found another study done by the same author, which states that MgO may not be a reliable source of Mg2+, given the lack of detectable change in serum Mg2+ levels, also in foals.

70% is high. Much higher than any reported absorption rate of recent studies in the last 20 years for any Mg2+ compound in horse, rat, or human, none of which report even half.

Given conflicting data from the same author even, further research is wise instead of taking these numbers at face value.

Regardless, while entertaining, the findings in either study are inconsequential to my context as the focus here is mature horses, and not foals.

I don’t understand the question. There are 100s if not 1000s now v/m supps for horses. Go to Valley Vet or Smart Pack or Dover and search multivitamin. This whole thread has a bunch of the requested “high end” products listed already.

I don’t know what to tell you. You asked, I provided and made the point to state the studies were in foals, and also said there just isn’t a whole lot of research out there. Horses all over have proved that MgOx is plenty for them. Others have said it doesn’t work for them. The reasons MgOx is the typical form of all or most Mg in feeds/supps is because it’s cheap and generally considered a good source between whatever digestibility it does have, and its high elemental Mg content.

4 Likes

OP, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? Is there a specific issue with your horse you are trying to address? If so, what is it?

Every answer you’ve gotten in this thread has pointed you in a good direction and you’ve shot them all down. Why?

Unless you can be a whole lot more specific about exactly what you are looking to accomplish, I think you’ve exhausted the options!

Bottom line: Feed good quality grass hay in appropriate amounts. Fresh water always. Salt block. Use a good ration balancer such as Triple Crown 30%, as label directed. That is likely a ‘good enough BASE’ for any horse.

8 Likes

Here is the new horsetech blend [ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“large”,“data-attachmentid”:10650337}[/ATTACH]

FB_IMG_1589463173805.jpg

1 Like

I made a mistake saying digestibility with the chelated, what I read was that if you use chelated minerals, the iron would not interfere with the absorption and you didn’t have to worry so much about the ratios in high iron areas. But I can’t remember where I read that, so not sure if it is true. I was reading up on all this because i have a horse with scratches and i had added more copper and zinc to his diet but it didnt help.

1 Like

But there’s no evidence pointing to chelated minerals being more (or less) bioavaialble than non-chelated. I’m interested in what you read showing that chelated copper, for example, would be less affected by iron, than non-chelated copper.

Scratches aren’t always, or only about cu/zn. If you had a forage analysis and know you added enough cu/zn to get a good ratio, and still no results (over how long a period?), then I would be looking to Vit A and E, and selenium, as potential underlying issues. And sometimes, it’s really not dietary, it can be genetic and immune-related issues you can’t out-feed.

2 Likes

At this point I am just trying to figure out what a ration balancer is vs a supplement.

Okay. Supplement - you feed a lesser volume. RB - you would feed more to get the same ‘RDA’. Example: I feed Uckele Equi VM - it is a vitamin/mineral supplement. I feed 2 oz/day. Were I to buy Triple Crown 30% (RB), I would feed at least 1 pound per day (maybe more depending on body weight).

Make sense?

A ration balancer is a pelleted product. It is typically fed to horses that cannot have “regular grain” for whatever reason (usually because they don’t need the calories). Horses get about 1 -1.5 pounds/day, so they are much higher % in protein.

At my barn, most of the ponies are on ration balancers because they would explode on the average 5-6 pounds/day of grain They get their nutritional needs met on 1 pound. Less calories, and they don’t get grumpy at graining, as they get 1/2 pound AM and PM. IMO a ration balancer is the simplest way to meet the needs of horses that can’t have “grain”.

Some horses have even stricter requirements- could be metabolic issues. Or they have a soy intolerance, since most RBs use soy for protein. These horses would be better served with a supplement. At a few ounces, you have extremely minimal calories, there are several that are soy-free, etc. The only “problem” is that you then usually need to mix with with hay pellets or hay stretcher, unless you plan on hand-feeding it to your horse every day. Really only an issue if you are boarding.

1 Like

What do you still have questions about after reading this below?

I’m not going to do all the math for you.

  • Pick any of the v/m supplements listed here.
  • Pick a ration balancer - Triple Crown 30 for example.
  • Pick a handful of the major nutrients like lysine, methionine, calcium, phosphorous, copper, zinc, magnesium, and iron, and any others you're concerned about
  • Calculate the mg or gm of each *on a per-serving basis*
  • Compare the amounts.
Also, v/m supplements have almost no calories - if they are fed in a 3-6oz amount and are flax-based, there are a few calories. Ration balancers are in the 1200-1300 cal/lb range.
1 Like

I googled chelated copper and found this, on the triple crown website, not sure if this is where I saw it before but similar info.
https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/feedpost/the-importance-of-organic-minerals-in-the-horses-diet/