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$15,000 vet bill - NOT my dog!!

The Menagerie
#61

[QUOTE=mvp;6035426]

I’m a sucker for animals and a curmudgeon when it comes to people. But lately, I have found in necessary to get firm on the ranking of people and animals in my own mind. I don’t know be ethical any more and not do that. To me, the only difference between people and animals that matters enough to talk about how we distribute charity is the fact that humans “get it”-- the whole mess of things that come along with being helped or not, deserving or not, judged or appreciated unconditionally, and can understand the conversation about help in a way that animals cannot. A human who knows he needs help and is denied suffers more than an animal who was not aware of the option.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I’ve come to the opposite conculsion–I give to human-oriented causes only after I give to animals. And then only to a very few (Salvation Army is about it this year, and that’s mostly to spite people I know who are saying not to give to them. I disagree with them on points of doctrine but the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Otherwise, Catholic groups only, or sometimes Heifer Int. because they give in Eastern Europe and are nominally animal-related.)

Most humans can do something about their own condition up to and including accepting their suffering as part of life. Animals can’t. And most animals didn’t place themselves in the situations. Most people did. Animals don’t complain about conditions attached to assistance, people do. (If you can’t handle having to listen to someone read the Bible while you eat your free meal, you’re clearly not REALLY hungry, or aware why the nice people are even bothering to help you in the first place.) Humans, by and large, just become greedy and entitled. Animals are just grateful without understanding why.

Not saying I’d spend $15,000 on a dog in that condition, but that would be a strict cost/benefit analysis. It wouldn’t be humans getting the rest even if I didn’t.

#62

[QUOTE=mvp;6035426]
I thought hard about posting this and I hope you’ll all forgive me for being the voice of dissent.

I think it’s wrong to spend that chunk of change saving an animal who has no idea people can give or take away life when human beings who do understand that also need help and would be materially helped by an act of charity that large are suffering.

OP, I am glad you did what you could to maximize this dog’s quality of life as you could when given the opportunity. Nothing takes away from that; it’s a great a noble act. I’m also glad you could honor your FIL-- that he was a dog lover, that he left your family an inheritance, that you chose to do as you did.

I’m a sucker for animals and a curmudgeon when it comes to people. But lately, I have found in necessary to get firm on the ranking of people and animals in my own mind. I don’t know be ethical any more and not do that. To me, the only difference between people and animals that matters enough to talk about how we distribute charity is the fact that humans “get it”-- the whole mess of things that come along with being helped or not, deserving or not, judged or appreciated unconditionally, and can understand the conversation about help in a way that animals cannot. A human who knows he needs help and is denied suffers more than an animal who was not aware of the option.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but there are far, far many people undeserving & unthankful of help than there are animals deserving & thankful of it.

#63

[QUOTE=Bacardi1;6035472]
Sorry, but there are far, far many people undeserving & unthankful of help than there are animals deserving & thankful of it.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your thoughtful, civilized replies so far. I’m sure everyone involved with this dog thought hard about their decisions, so we can pay respect to them by continuing to follow in their tradition of contemplation and compassion.

I think some folks do put themselves into their various fixes. I think many of us are only partially aware of “our part in it.” And then there are people who believe in their bones that they are the victims of circumstance. Sometimes the rest of us agree with them, sometimes we do not. To the belligerent junkie we might attribute weak morals or the disease of addiction. That might depend on the time, place and personal beliefs. And what did the child hit by the bus or leukemia do wrong? Different questions, same answer: It depends on how you make socially-acceptable attributions. Are we really going to do our metaphysics by vote?

And how do you know if an animal is “thankful” in the way that a human is (or says she is?). How can we measure the deservingness of a person or animal? By the way, those are different philosophical questions; you’d have to know different things in order to make a rock solid argument that you had attributed gratitude and merit accurately. One involves guessing at the inner state of an animal/person; the other involves establishing an external set of standards sorting “the good” from “the bad” and deciding who earned a place among the good.

My point is that both those judgement calls are hard to make and therefore a bad way to characterize the difference between people and animals. We risk really screwing a grateful and deserving animal/person or, alternately, enabling an entitled bastard when we guess wrong. That’s why I think the better way-- one that minimizes suffering for all (people and animals) as they can be subjected to that-- is to find a different, more sensitive way of describing the differences between our types of being.

On the human side: We might actually have to start empathizing with and even liking people who are not like us. Hell, if we can do that for the 4-leggeds (and some of us, the snakes), we can do it for us, right?

In particular, I think anyone who has not pleaded for help that could be given and felt the terror and loneliness of being seen for that need and denied is unqualified to talk about the particular kind of suffering that those needy folks have done. It is by the grace of God (or luck) that none of us knows this-- We may control some of the circumstances that made us vulnerable, but we certainly don’t control another’s decision to help or refuse to.

So, is the grace of God/luck really a good basis for an argument about how we should distribute help, and the conviction that our personal system is really the best one?

In other words, walk the walk of being the person denied something desperately needed, perhaps admitting your part in creating the mess, and then tell me that you were ready to accept your just deserts, that you didn’t dearly wish for someone to know you would have been thankful or were, in fact, deserving.

#64

Frankly, I thing this whole brou-ha-ha boils down to one thing & one thing only.

The OP has every right to do what SHE wants with HER money. And YOU have every right to do what YOU want with YOUR money. Neither one of you has any right to criticize the other’s choices. Period.

So get over it.

#65

On the question of money, I doubt it was an “animal charity vs. human charity” question for the OP. Would anyone bat an eye if she had spent $15,000 on a new roof or a swimming pool or a summer in Italy? She encountered an animal in need and she kept saying “yes” at every junction. I don’t think it started with her at her desk weighing multiple stray-dog surgeries against the Heifer Intl. and Red Cross brochures.

I applaud anyone who uses their time, energy, or money for the good of another, whatever the scope might be.

#66

Yay for 3TBs. The Christmas spirit and all that stuff lives on, and so does the $25,000+ dog :smiley:

#67

[QUOTE=Bacardi1;6035694]
Frankly, I thing this whole brou-ha-ha boils down to one thing & one thing only.

The OP has every right to do what SHE wants with HER money. And YOU have every right to do what YOU want with YOUR money. Neither one of you has any right to criticize the other’s choices. Period.

So get over it.[/QUOTE]

Well, first there’d have to be a brou-ha-ha for me to get over. If you have on going on in your mind, then I apologize for contributing to that. It wasn’t my intention. I hope you don’t confuse my having an opinion with being angry at someone. I don’t think I criticized the OP beyond the limits of stating a contrary point of view. You can re-read my unedited posts in order to see the parts of her decision I praised.

#68

Honestly - yes I’m being cynical but from what I see anymore and yes I’m getting old and curmudgeonly - the dog probably appreciates it more. It’s the holidays when everyone is supposed to be happy and cheery and kind to others.
Have you been to a grocery store parking lot lately???
You take your life in your hands. Tried to find a parking spot?

Would the drug addict really change?? Would it really change a person’s life?? Maybe - depending on the circumstances.
That amount of money isn’t necessarily life changing - it might be. The dog will love you forever. The person?? Not so much.

[QUOTE=mvp;6035426]
I thought hard about posting this and I hope you’ll all forgive me for being the voice of dissent.

I think it’s wrong to spend that chunk of change saving an animal who has no idea people can give or take away life when human beings who do understand that also need help and would be materially helped by an act of charity that large are suffering.

OP, I am glad you did what you could to maximize this dog’s quality of life as you could when given the opportunity. Nothing takes away from that; it’s a great a noble act. I’m also glad you could honor your FIL-- that he was a dog lover, that he left your family an inheritance, that you chose to do as you did.

I’m a sucker for animals and a curmudgeon when it comes to people. But lately, I have found in necessary to get firm on the ranking of people and animals in my own mind. I don’t know be ethical any more and not do that. To me, the only difference between people and animals that matters enough to talk about how we distribute charity is the fact that humans “get it”-- the whole mess of things that come along with being helped or not, deserving or not, judged or appreciated unconditionally, and can understand the conversation about help in a way that animals cannot. A human who knows he needs help and is denied suffers more than an animal who was not aware of the option.[/QUOTE]

#69

My old veterinarian once said:

"What’s the difference between feeding a starving dog, and feeding a starving man?

The dog won’t bite the hand that feeds it."

He retired a long time ago, but I’ve always remembered that!

#70

Reading all your posts…and to be honest I agree with the most of you that I wouldnt spend that much money on a dog…even my own.

However, unless you are actually in that situation - please dont judge. I am extremely lucky to have been able to have the funds to support this. While I dont consider my self “rich”, my family is comfortable and I felt this was good use of some money left from my father in law.

I really couldnt have asked for a better outcome. I was warned that she may not make it. I was warned that I could be spending tens of thousands of dollars and not have an alive dog. But, in the end, I feel I underpaid for a wonderful new friend :slight_smile:

Miss Money and I are going to bring Christmas dinner to the vets and support staff that have to work over the holidays. If it wasnt for these amazing people, I wouldnt have her. I just cant get over the staff at this hospital - how they took a dog for dead, and within hours had specialists come in from all around to save her life. She is doing fantastic, baby steps but she is coming along so well. Her spirits are high and she had the determination to live.

Im going to stick a bow on her head, and put her under the tree. I figure a dog is better than an IPad any day!

(Oh, and regarding human charity - I dont feel comfortable stating how much we have donated, but donating to our top 3 charities is something we never take lightly).

#71

mvp wrote

I thought hard about posting this and I hope you’ll all forgive me for being the voice of dissent.

I think it’s wrong to spend that chunk of change saving an animal who has no idea people can give or take away life when human beings who do understand that also need help and would be materially helped by an act of charity that large are suffering.

OP, I am glad you did what you could to maximize this dog’s quality of life as you could when given the opportunity. Nothing takes away from that; it’s a great a noble act. I’m also glad you could honor your FIL-- that he was a dog lover, that he left your family an inheritance, that you chose to do as you did.

I’m a sucker for animals and a curmudgeon when it comes to people. But lately, I have found in necessary to get firm on the ranking of people and animals in my own mind. I don’t know be ethical any more and not do that. To me, the only difference between people and animals that matters enough to talk about how we distribute charity is the fact that humans “get it”-- the whole mess of things that come along with being helped or not, deserving or not, judged or appreciated unconditionally, and can understand the conversation about help in a way that animals cannot. A human who knows he needs help and is denied suffers more than an animal who was not aware of the option.

I almost hate to re-post that, but I guess that I have to do it. Everytime I hear something like this it bothers me, and it bothers me deeply. The part that says that it is wrong to spend that on an animal just gets under my skin.
What is the difference between spending $15K on a dog’s vet bill and buying a horse for 15K? What is the difference between taking an expensive vacation or spending the money on a dog vet bill? What about horse board? I am spending over $500 a month in board for my horse - perhaps I should really be donating that to a human cause, because it is wrong?
Unless you are living at a subsistence level and donating everything discretionary to people in need, then I think statements about how much is wrong to spend on an animal are hypocritical. I spend more money on my animals than many people would - I also hardly ever travel (and really only for work). Discretionary spending is discretionary spending. It’s the same, IMHO, with donations to a non-profit. Donating to an animal charity doesn’t mean that you put all animal needs before all human needs - it just means that it is the charity that a particular person chooses to donate to.

#72

[QUOTE=incentive;6026178]
Your generosity has brought me to tears. You make up for some very crappy people in this world. I hope you and Miss Money have many happy years together!!!

And what a lovely way to honor your FIL.[/QUOTE]

I agree. 3TBs, on what you said 'My father in law passed away 3 months ago, he was a huge dog lover and when he passed we did inherit from him (my husband is the only living child). I guess deep down I know he would have saved this dog, and he left us the money to save her ’ - darn right he would, and he is just delighted that he was indirectly able to help you do that! Condolences on losing him though, but that legacy not only saved the dog’s life but helped the Veterinary practice pay its bills.

#73

And I bet the sight of Miss Money will warm the vet staff’s hearts as much as the good food warms their tummies.

May you and your family and Miss Money have a very happy, if quiet, holiday.

#74

My dau accidently ran over her landlord’s mastiff puppy–it was sleeping under her truck; she didn’t see it and the dog didn’t move when the engine started.

She assumed full responsibility. Several hundred dollars later (after hrs call!) , she was fortunate to find out that her auto policy would pay for the vet bill.

She also learned to do a visual sweep under the truck before starting it! Word to the wise.

#75

[QUOTE=ksojerio;6036945]
My dau accidently ran over her landlord’s mastiff puppy–it was sleeping under her truck; she didn’t see it and the dog didn’t move when the engine started.

She assumed full responsibility. Several hundred dollars later (after hrs call!) , she was fortunate to find out that her auto policy would pay for the vet bill.

She also learned to do a visual sweep under the truck before starting it! Word to the wise.[/QUOTE]

I had a similar experience with a happy outcome—a fellow boarder at a small barn where I rode hopped in her tiny car (a Geo Metro or the like) and backed one tire right over the midsection of my adolescent Irish Wolfhound! Maggie jumped to her feet, all a-wag, and acted like she’d just gotten the greatest back-rub ever. She was 100% fine.

#76

I haven’t been on COTH in awhile…life keeps getting in the way of me staying up to speed so I just took a long break. (but hello to all! I have missed you!)

This thread was cross posted in a small private forum I do keep up on and we’ve been discussing it.

My much loved 8 1/2 YO lab just spent the last 6 days in ICU at Michigan State University due to septic peritonitis due to a ruptured bowel…due to a teen tiny squirrel vertebra. Lucky us! When I left him Saturday afternoon prior to surgery, we were given a 50/50 chance of him walking out of there. After surgery at 9pm, we were given a 20% chance as he’d had 30cm of small intestine removed AND he was very septic. But his long term quality of life was good IF he survived. And I could do it financially now. So I did.

If you had asked me 10 years ago if I’d spend 8-10k on a dog, I’d probably have said no. Shoot, even 2 years ago when he had an obstruction and I had no money to pay for it and had to utter the words, “I’m sorry, but I just can’t afford this. I will be over in 30 to put him to sleep”…when you don’t have the money, you don’t have the money. And you can’t NOT do something. It’s euth or fork it over. I was lucky two years ago that my veterinarian said, “I hear what you’re saying. But we’re not going to let this sweet guy die today so we’ll work it out.”

But you don’t get to do that at MSU.

I jokingly told friends and family that this year, they were getting a Christmas card w/ a copy of the vet bill and a note: “A donation has been made in your honor to MSU. Giais thanks you.”

I feel really blessed that I have the opportunity to have a few more years with my bubba.

I can’t say that I would have done as the OP given my financial situation. This bill is a hardship for my family, but not so much that we’re “at risk”. But when you’re faced with an opportunity to have a good long term prognosis and you’ve got the money to do it and it’s what you want to do? Well good on you.

Yes. 15k in the OP’s case could’ve helped lots of other animals or people.

But sometimes we have to spend money on things that mean something to us directly. And if I had hit a critter on the road and had the money to spend, I’d have done the same.

I’m happy to hear that Miss Money is doing reasonably well. I think that it’s a lovely Christmas story.

I am happy to report that I think I too have a happy Christmas story. My guy came home last night. Due to the wonderful staff, doctors, and students at MSU, I got a really great Christmas present this year.

#77

[QUOTE=Trakehner;6032749]
Sorry, but you were really robbed by the vets…That was an obscene charge they put together…even at their “reduced” rate of $15K.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t realize that was a reduced rate:eek::eek::eek:
I would have thought the follow up visits would be included in the first charge?

You have a very big heart and honestly, I could never spend that kind of money on even my dogs ( even if I had it). I do hope she heals perfectly and you have many happy years with her.

#78

I don’t think it’s an obscene charge at all.

I worked in veterinary medicine for 10 years. 10 years ago. The tools we had at our disposal were freaking prehistoric compared to now.

My dog had treatments this last week that are “new” as of about 2 years ago. Invented by the surgeon who operated on him.

The drugs available now? Expensive. My dog was on medications that in my mind, were human only. Getting treatment that 10 years ago, wasn’t even available. And it costs money to offer these services.

Especially on emergency when specialists are being called in on their time off to help.

I am so blessed that one such surgeon, known world wide, was called in. Without her help, I’d probably be short a dog this Christmas.

And the radiologist, anesthesiologist, extra techs, etc?

My dog had some of the best in the US, maybe the world, working on him. They didn’t overcharge. The markup wasn’t even that significant.

15k for a dog in the kind of shape the OP’s was is not out of the realm or reason.

That some would choose NOT to spend that is fine. Reasonable. Probably WISE! But that doesn’t mean that the charges were out of line either.

#79

Having spent that and much more at large animal hospitals for our horses, I can fully understand how it got to that sum in the short amount of time that it did, and wish the OP all the world’s enjoyment in her new dog! I will suggest that if she used plastic to cover some of this, to look into www.carecredit.com to see if some of the balance can be shifted over to this to take the heat off of the payment schedule for a while.

Truly, you are a generous person with a good heart. I hope you enjoy your new dog! :slight_smile:

#80

I work at a hospital which is equipped with an ICU. Routinely we will see bills reach 5 figures. I can see how her bill would easily reach 30,000 considering the type of surgeries and care required. Its amazing what some people do for their pets - I wouldnt even be able to dothat for myself!

Thankfully the majority of our ICU patients have pet insurance. I really dont understand why people dont buy into this.

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