I can’t figure out how to message you but I
can help with this…
Way to go all of you analyzing data.
It’s just so hard to quantify the nuances of riding and horses, especially in a situation like this.
I’m pretty active in following the data on horse racing fatalities and while that also has a lot of nuance, it’s easier to establish patterns because there are less variables.
It feels like there are endless variables when analyzing eventing, even when you try to narrow the data set to something like falls when moving up to prelim.
I LOVE all of the data driven analytics, I think you are all amazing that can do that! Question though, will event entries, or any other entry system other than maybe Xentry, be able to actually flag a person who should not be entering a level based on their record? I’m so curious if that is an option?? again, I saw an AA competeing last weekend that clearly has a questionable record at Training.
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As a dork who filled up electives with statistics back in college, I’m both incredibly impressed with my kindred spirits taking on some analytics and horribly annoyed that our membership organization doesn’t make this data readily available in a consumable format.
Where is the data? The snippet presented in the rationale for the proposed rule change, while valid, is the output of someone’s chosen analysis.
@Libby2563 & @Hilary let me know how I can help. Maybe an Access DB?
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Does EquiRatings do any US only statistical studies? If not, we need something like that here, dedicated to US riding since it seems to be on a bit of a different level than overseas. Or USEA/F should look into contracting that if they don’t want to do it themselves. It sounded to me like they used ER info to decide on this entire change.
I am seeing a few professionals in my area who have struggled with these “hard talks” being very in favor of this new rule. I am surprised though, because the rule will effect them and ultimately their paycheck – the days of them riding their clients horse for its first prelim are over.
I still am not in favor of it. It’s damaging to any society when the people on top blame the people on bottom instead of looking within – people on bottom would not be struggling so much if the people on top provided more resources to gain this experience, better courses, you get it…
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No idea, not sure why all the science behind the decision is hard to find? Maybe it’s private because they did consult Equiratings for data.
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Yes they have a contract with USEA already.
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The way I understand it, the ones that are “A licensed” will still be able to do that.
And I imagine “A licensed” riders may financially benefit from being the only ones able to do so.
It’s the pros who aren’t regularly riding at the FEI level who stand to lose money. The Phillips, the Boyds, the Bucks, etc. won’t be affected by these rule changes. (Which I know everyone understands)
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This idea makes sense…
Current riders eligible for A or B licensure:
https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/NktAb_S30XQ/usa-fei-eventing-rider-categorization
If I’m interpreting correctly, FEI Categories A,B, and C are under License A. The Category D riders are under License B.
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I am going to ask what is probably a stupid question - What qualifications does one have to be a licensed rider?
I googled it and I could not find anything. (Reminder - Google hates me, so it might be there and I just did not find it.)
It is in the proposed rule, linked earlier in this thread. IIRC 25 or more MERs at Prelim or above for B License, and 25 or more MERs at Intermediate or above for A License (each within 8 years).
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But the proposed USEF A and B licenses can include national horse trials, not just FEI results, so I assume more riders are eligible than for the FEI categories.
Anyone have numbers on USEA membership over the last 10-15 years? Curious to see what’s trending there. I know 2018 was a tough year with overall starts at USEA competitions down about 8%, ascribed to ‘bad weather’. Also be interested in if the number of recognized USEA shows is static, going up or down and the same with unrecognized shows. Lellie Ward just announced she would no longer run recognized shows.
BTW, I think the new rules are stupid. How does going down the bunny slope 10 times qualify you or make you any safer for the Black Diamond? The jump from Training to Prelim is huge for most amateurs, the new rules are just a de facto lifetime ban from Prelim for those of us in areas with fewer (and fewer and fewer) recognized shows, families, jobs, limited budgets, concrete footing in the summer, lameness, and just plain being pissed off at stupid rules. How about going back to “move up” shows, reducing course speeds and putting more emphasis on clinics, training and schooling, all of which will be pushed aside as gunners race to get their MERs in, pushing themselves and their horses in any and all conditions. Nope, I’ve done tons of trainings, quite well too but there’s NO WAY I feel that it qualifies me to move up to Prelim. I mean, if 10 MERs reduces injuries and makes things safer, why not just make it 20 and eliminate injuries altogether? That seems to be the thinking, is it not?
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I think event entries are growing quite a bit if I remember correctly.
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Agreed. There are two sides to this (very important) issue, and right now we’re only addressing one.
Yes and no. It would be MUCH cheaper to fly a qualified instructor to you and your horse than to ship your horse double-digit hours all over the country to chase MERs. It’s not perfect, but would be a big improvement.
I’ve been mulling this over. Why not a “C” licensed rider as well? Currently the rule has “A” licensed riders (25 or more MERs at Intermediate), “B” licensed riders (25 or more MERs at Prelim), and “unlicensed”. Why not a “C” licensed rider for riders that have 25 or more MERs at Training? They may not yet be ready to judge when a horse is proficient at the Prelim level, but they definitely have the experience to judge when a horse is proficient at the Training level.
If a rider with 25 MERs at Training gets the ride on an established Prelim horse for a season, asking them to do 8 MERs at a level where they and the horse have independently proved their proficiencies seems excessive.
Hadn’t thought of this. But it’s definitely something I’ve seen - amateurs or riders new to a level with a horse that is also new to the level quite reasonably ask someone with ample experience at the level to upgrade the horse first, minimizing the green-on-green factor (even when horse and rider are appropriately qualified, in practice not just by MERs).
I’m sure it’s top-of-mind for Tamie because she has been the catch rider several times in the past - immediately coming to mind are the times she covered “maternity leaves” for her daughter and for Frankie Theriot-Stutes, keeping their upper level horses going at FEIs or Advanced. Sometimes those leaves lined up with the horse needing to upgrade and Tamie has done the upgrade with the horse and handed it back once their original rider returns from leave.
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I like the idea of more licensing levels for sure. And a way to account for other circumstances. For example, I am pretty sure that in his final 8 seasons of competing Prelim and above, Denny Emerson would have been unlicensed. Maybe he had enough starts to be a B rider. Either way, does anyone think that after that many seasons at Prelim and above with his credentials that he wouldn’t know when a horse was ready simply because he was competing less frequently? If you take one horse up to Intermediate or Advanced and buy an established horse who has also been Prelim, how many Trainings do you need as a combination since you are still unlicensed?
Here’s another catch with the new rule: In some areas, there is virtually no Advanced and very little Intermediate; it would be impossible to become an A Licensed rider in 8 years without multiple horses at that level running all the time with all MERs–and even then it would be over the same venue over and over. So the entire Area would have no A riders who COULD catch ride your horse. Sure, we can’t all win Badminton on a catch ride, but catch riding is critical to both pros and clients at the N-P levels everywhere. If there is no way to do any catch riding, a lot of those pros will move somewhere they can become licensed, leaving an instructor desert in areas that are already a bit thin, and those who remain lose the option to catch ride. Everyone loses.
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