2022 New Rules Proposed - MERs Required to Move Up

[frugalannie]

Some interesting and workable ideas have been suggested. I particularly like the “zeroing” of dressage scores at a certain number. While I understand the concerns about ties, perhaps keeping dressage penalties as they are for championships at any level, and for all competitions at I and above would work.

But as to the observers, as I recall the BHS identified “Fellows” who would attend horse trials, offer coaching help to anyone who asked and keep their eyes open for riders/ horses that might pose safety issues. Eric Smiley was one as I recall. He quite liked the system. I wonder if something like that could be used to support some of the suggestions already made.

[Blugal]

Both licensing and fellows require money - and that money should come through the organization, i.e. all members participate in funding it.

Requiring 8 MERs for each level neatly places all the cost on the individual members who want to do it.

You can see the motivations for the different scenarios…

[Marigold]

This is an excellent article, IMO. Doesn’t exactly mince words, but I think that’s pretty fair. If the USEA is going to hold riders’ feet to the fire and tell them they have to spend more on MERs, it’s only fair that the riders can do the exact same thing and tell them they have to spend more on Modifieds. Why are we moving on to the next safety solution before the last one is even fully implemented/available to all?

Perspective: Want to Move Up to Prelim? Don’t Skip the Modified Level -...

[Jealoushe]

Yes I liked this one too. I’m going to try and get some movement on adding this level to more events in Ontario.

[beowulf]

I’m not sure I agree that better dressage scores correlates to better (safer) XC. I see a lot of brilliant movers who lay down great tests, who should stay in the sandbox. Some of them are even in the ULs of our sport… A recent name that comes to mind is Loughan Glen. Love that horse and he always got my heart going in dressage… but he got my heart going in XC too, for very different reasons.

Not to get too political, but I can think of a few of ML’s horses who are brilliant in dressage and very scary XC. I haven’t seen the correlation that better dressage scores equals a safer XC round – if anything, I’ve seen the direct opposite.

XC experience correlates to better XC safety. No matter how well schooled the horse is in dressage, it will never be safe if it isn’t just as well schooled in XC.

I’d be against setting a minimum dressage score. From a purely anecdotal standpoint, my safest horses XC have not been competitive in dressage. Not because they lacked harmony or balance or rhythm, but because they were not good movers and were always outclassed by the better movers. In divisions where they were lucky enough to be one of the better movers, they’d score quite well – but if they were in a division that had a mix of good & average movers, they tended to get a score in the middle of the pack, and always earned their competitiveness through XC + SJ.

Some of the safest XC horses I know are steeplechasers, and they don’t know diddly about the sandbox.

And, it IS an “american conviction” because it does happen in the Americas. I scribe often for my area (Area 1) and it’s present here. I’ve watched tests where the brilliant moving horse is steered through some lumpy egg of a circle, and still gets a better score than the horse and rider combo that delivers an accurate test without the fancy movement.

It’s not a conspiracy theory. It’s just the reality of how much dressage (and the movement scoring) has started to influence eventing.

[Libby2563]

@beowulf

And, it IS an “american conviction” because it does happen in the Americas. I scribe often for my area (Area 1) and it’s present here. I’ve watched tests where the brilliant moving horse is steered through some lumpy egg of a circle, and still gets a better score than the horse and rider combo that delivers an accurate test without the fancy movement.

It’s not a conspiracy theory. It’s just the reality of how much dressage (and the movement scoring) has started to influence eventing.

Yes, the reality is that the current dressage scoring system starts with the gaits. This is from pages 6-7 of this judges’ checklist (https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Competition/Judges_Checklist_w_chart10_16_2012.pdf), which also discuss the scoring methodology (basics + criteria +/- modifier = score):

The Current USEF Rules State:

1. The object of dressage is the development of the horse into a happy athlete through harmonious education. As a result, it makes the horse calm, supple, loose and flexible, but also confident, attentive and keen, thus achieving perfect understanding with the rider.
2. These qualities are demonstrated by:
   a. The freedom and regularity of the gaits;
   b. The harmony, lightness and ease of the movements;
   c. The lightness of the forehand and the engagement of the hindquarters, originating from a lively impulsion;
   d. The acceptance of the bit, with submissiveness/throughness (Durchlässigkeit) without any tension or resistance

When you read part 1 it sounds fairly egalitarian, like any horse should be able to achieve success through correct training. When you read part 2 though, better movers have a natural advantage in (a), (b), and (c ). It doesn’t mean that an effective, accurate rider can’t make the most of an average mover, but it does mean that their score will start at a lower baseline than the better mover.

ETA that I was refreshing myself on eventing rules and noticed that the same language as above appears in EV133, slightly reworded in some places.

Interestingly, EV131 states:

RELATIVE INFLUENCE OF THE TESTS. In principle, the Cross-Country Test should be the most influential of the three tests of a Horse Trial. The Dressage Test, while less influential than the Cross-Country Test, should be slightly more influential than the Jumping Test.

[initiate1987]

Tamie Smith just put out an excellent article on EN: https://eventingnation.com/perspective-quantity-over-quality-will-stifle-the-grassroots-of-eventing/

[Thames_Pirate]

I think 45 in the dressage is reasonable. I think 40 might not be. An example: My only score worse than a 45 came in a monsoon, when the footing deteriorated and we were slipping through corners (in hindsight, I should have put in studs for dressage). That score would not have counted (and I ended up withdrawing given the conditions). I already tend to be tense in the dressage, with my scores on that horse mostly in the 34-39 range, with the occasional 40-42. That horse was a total genius in the XC, though, easy to gallop and easy to make time. Should some of those shows, which were MERs, not count? Consistent scores over 45 should be a red flag, though.

I think every horse is allowed the occasional stop–a slip, a deer running in front of a fence or a jump judge opening an umbrella, a rider deciding discretion is the better part of valour and taking a circle. I wouldn’t say a horse needs a perfect record, or even a percentage; a green horse might have two shows with baby moments, then four perfect runs, by the end of which he is more than ready but still only has a 2/3 clear rate. Or a combination that moves up, then moves back down and then back up–do the old events count against them? I do think that a RECENT record of shows with stops–more than one on a course or more than one show with a stop–should be a red flag.

I agree about the time; an MER should not have more than a few time faults (and frankly, it shouldn’t really have any, but of course there are always exceptions–bad weather, problems with timing after a hold, etc., so I also have no problems with some flexibility here). But consistent and significant time faults should be a red flag.

I agree about the SJ; consistently pulling lots of rails should be a red flag. Then again, if you get into the triple poorly and pull a rail at each fence, you have three down and only one bad ride. So here again we should look at the bigger picture; did the rider have consistently clean or mostly clean rounds, or did the rider have 3-4 down at every show? There is a difference, and the latter should be a red flag.

And even if we analysed each rider’s record to account for all of these things, they would still only give us part of the picture. It’s better, but it’s still not a qualitative assessment.

[Willesdon]

@beowulf

… XC experience correlates to better XC safety. No matter how well schooled the horse is in dressage, it will never be safe if it isn’t just as well schooled xc…

… if they were in a division that had a mix of good & average movers, they tended to get a score in the middle of the pack, and always earned their competitiveness through XC + SJ. …

… Some of the safest XC horses I know are steeplechasers, and they don’t know diddly about the sandbox

I obviously expressed myself poorly in my post as I absolutely agree that eventing is far more than a dressage competition, that xc is its best, most fun element and it is the sport’s USP. And I totally, 100%, absolutely agree that safe xc demands effective xc training!

What I was trying to say is that a rider who cannot get a minimum dressage score is unlikely to have the basic riding skills to control a horse running xc. If a rider can not keep a horse in balance on a circle, obtain collection and extension within a gait and halt when asked in the arena - which to me are pretty basic skills - then is that rider safe to even consider running xc? I’m not suggesting everyone should obtain sub-20 scores (how often does that happen?) but if someone is consistently getting 60-70+ then maybe more practice at home, in all three phases, would a better idea than risking life and limb at a higher level of competition. And if people say “Oh, but my horse can’t do dressage” then, let’s be honest, either they don’t have a horse suitable for the demands of modern eventing or the training is missing.

[trubandloki]

@Willesdon

either they don’t have a horse suitable for the demands of modern eventing

I think this is part of the point that people are trying to make, one of the problems with modern eventing dressage where fancy moving seems to matter more than safe on cross country.

[Willesdon]

It is interesting how top level riders here in the UK consistently stress the gallop not the fancy dance moves when looking for event horses. One can train for an improved trot but a gallop is instilled at birth. I have also noticed an increase in the number of full TB stallions available for performance sport breeding this season. People are looking for blood to get to the highest levels.

[Libby2563]

@Willesdon

What I was trying to say is that a rider who cannot get a minimum dressage score is unlikely to have the basic riding skills to control a horse running xc. … I’m not suggesting everyone should obtain sub-20 scores (how often does that happen?) but if someone is consistently getting 60-70+ then maybe more practice at home, in all three phases, would a better idea than risking life and limb at a higher level of competition.

I don’t think anyone disagrees with that—I know I don’t! What I was responding to were suggestions upthread that the maximum dressage penalties should be reduced further. Currently an MER requires 50 or fewer penalties in dressage (45 in FEI events I think), which IME is not in the realm of “out of control / not safe to jump.” I am skeptical that reducing the floor to 30 or 35 or whatever would improve XC safety.

[beowulf]

Gotcha. thumbs up

[ACMEeventing]

@Thames_Pirate

I agree about the time; an MER should not have more than a few time faults (and frankly, it shouldn’t really have any, but of course there are always exceptions–bad weather, problems with timing after a hold, etc., so I also have no problems with some flexibility here). But consistent and significant time faults should be a red flag.

Can’t agree here. Making time is often where the rubber meets the road. A rider making good choices will frequently have a few faults. When you look at scores, double clear seems to be the exception and not the rule at Prelim +

[Thames_Pirate]

Sorry, I was talking about at Training to move up to Prelim. If you can’t make time consistently at Training, you probably shouldn’t be going Prelim.

[Blugal]

@Willesdon

What I was trying to say is that a rider who cannot get a minimum dressage score is unlikely to have the basic riding skills to control a horse running xc. If a rider can not keep a horse in balance on a circle, obtain collection and extension within a gait and halt when asked in the arena - which to me are pretty basic skills - then is that rider safe to even consider running xc?

Mostly this is true. But Training level dressage only asks for lengthening of trot and canter. If you don’t achieve it, you will get a 5 or less for a mark. It doesn’t mean you can’t do a safe XC.

The thing that gets me is there is always this talk of how everyone should be able to achieve something-or-the-other in dressage to be safe XC. Well, tell that to all the Brits and Irish hunting their horses, kids on ponies, adults on cobs, jockeys on point-to-pointers and steeplechasers.

Check out the Glentrool Trophy at Badminton which is awarded for the highest rise in places from dressage to the end of the competition. It’s usually won by a safe-as-houses XC horse that can deal with any weather and is speedy, but dislikes dressage.

[Willesdon]

@Blugal

Check out the Glentrool Trophy at Badminton which is awarded for the highest rise in places from dressage to the end of the competition. It’s usually won by a safe-as-houses XC horse that can deal with any weather and is speedy, but dislikes dressage.

I have great admiration for the horses who win that trophy. Imogen Murrey and Iver Goodun have won it the last two times and she is top notch across country. She would do even better if Iver Goodun could do better dressage! He is now getting on in years and she is bringing on younger horses.

I’ve been engaged in eventing for long enough to see a sea change in attitudes towards dressage and these days the top riders consistently achieve scores in the 20s and 30s are average. The German influence perhaps?

BE 80 (T) is the lowest level in the UK. It has a dedicated accredited BE coach available, free of charge (a national sponsorship pays for the cost) to support newcomers at events. The coaches answer questions and give advice, help in the warm up and do dedicated course walks for both jumping phases. An entire Noah’s Ark of equines take part.

Never mind. MERs are never going to be perfect but they are certainly necessary.

[Marigold]

@Willesdon

I’ve been engaged in eventing for long enough to see a sea change in attitudes towards dressage and these days the top riders consistently achieve scores in the 20s and 30s are average. The German influence perhaps?

If it’s the German influence, that can only be a good thing. May we all have that level of technical perfection! But I worry it’s something more sinister than that - a move away from the horses you needed to run a true long format (real stamina horses, TBs or those with very high blood) to “modern” eventing horses. Horses that have the lovely movement of a dressage horse but can just make it around an eight minute cross country. If we’re all becoming a little more German, then we’re getting better. If we’re just sitting on horses more suited to the flatwork, I believe that by definition it means we’re sitting on horses less suited to the jumping. And that is a trade-off I really don’t like.

I know I sound like a broken record, but setting a Z Line that is essentially a “clear round” in the dressage test, marked as 0 and beyond which the rider could gain no additional competitive advantage by getting a flashier mover or spending even more time drilling the test, would in my mind go a long way to encouraging people to get back on those blood horses. We shouldn’t want our event horses to look like Valegro (stunning though he is). We should want them to demonstrate precise training and a fluid partnership, and then we should want them to move on and jump the jumps easily and come across the finish line with more in the tank.

Right now, some people are buying dressage horses so that they have a chance at the top of the leaderboard and then hoping they can get it around the cross country. Me? I’m an amateur that needs all the help I can get out there. I don’t care if I win, but I want to come home safe. You’ll find me on my OTTB, thank you very much.

PS Love Ivar Gooden. It had completely slipped my notice that he’s 14 this year. Really hoping we can enjoy watching him out at top level for a few more years. Between him and Arctic Soul it’s been fun watching them make mincemeat of the big tracks for the past few years!

[Jealoushe]

Let’s be serious for a second. Eventing HAS changed. Where you used to be able to boot around a T or P on a brave horse that’s not the case anymore. You HAVE to be able to ride combinations, be adjustable and have a good hand.

If you can’t score under 45 in dressage at that level what is the harm in sending someone home to work harder at it?

The mindset of “getting through dressage” shouldn’t be accepted anymore.

Eventing a three discipline sport. If you suck at 1 of those 3 then you need to do your homework.

If your horse is an amazing XC horse but a crap dressage horse then your horse isn’t an eventer. It’s a XC horse. I keep seeing excuses about how some horses will never be good at dressage but it’s a load of BS. Any horse who is sound and healthy can do a decent dressage test if they are trained and ridden properly.

Enough excuses. People and horses are dying.

[Blugal]

@Jealoushe

Enough excuses. People and horses are dying.

Please show the correlation between bad dressage scores and deaths on XC. I don’t think there is one but I’ll wait to be corrected.

And especially I am looking for evidence that bad dressage scores at Training or Prelim are predictive of death. I doubt it.