They said the average are already doing 6, so 6 isn’t enough.
Also, rotational fall likelyhood goes up immensely when the fences are Prelim height and above. The point of rotation at that height creates the more likelyhood of a rotational fall. Obviously rotations can happen any time, but there is data supporting WHY Prelim becomes the ground for higher rate of dangerous falls
I watched the webinar and admit I was immediately put off by the premise, which wasn’t based on data, but assumptions: they “realized that some riders apparently are in need of more successful competitions at lower levels before they move up.” They had a “feeling” that “some” people were moving up too quickly.
So what I want to know is this: who fell at P in, say, 2018-2019 (2020 was too weird), and what effect would the rule have had on them. I also want to know who would have been impacted by the rule and didn’t have problems. Because this looks very arbitrary, and that’s exactly how it was presented.
Why aren’t we using other tools already available - yellow cards, pulling dangerous riders off course - which would actually target the behavior at issue without impacting people already being safe?
I’m pretty sure we’ve been over and over why it’s not practical relying on people pulling up dangerous riding on course. 1. You’d need a ton of officials at each event stationed at various parts of the course all day long. Actual officials, not just volunteers. 2. What is dangerous can be pretty arbitrary. I think the point of the new rule is to make it less so. 3. People would be lining up to complain/protest about why they were pulled and wanting their money back. And “appealing” on social media or badmouthing the event/official. 4. It can be hard for someone to pull up a big name or a friend of a friend or a client of a trainer going through a rough time or a trainer who is an avid supporter of the event. Who wants to do that, no matter how good intended? Sorry, but I think the new rule is some tough medicine that people are just going to have to swallow.
My problem with the Equiratings metrics is it can’t tell the difference between a “safe” 20 penalty run out and a dangerous clear round. We’ve all seen it happen… rider and horse having a beautiful go, excellent balance and control, then suffer a minor bobble and run out at a skinny. It doesn’t mean they are incompetent or unsafe…it was a mistake and we ALL make them. Is that rider ready to move up? No. But you know that, because you DIDN’T go clear.
What about the “clean” rounds that are ugly and borderline dangerous? If dressage was good enough, that rider wins or places well. Equiratings gives that rider a green light. But spectators gasp, fellow competitors wince, and others roll their eyes muttering “what a saintly horse.” Maybe too fast, lack of balance, or just plain ignorance of mistakes made that the horse was able to fix. That lack of experience, awareness, and responsibility is far more unsafe that a smart rider who got jumped loose and chose to circle between A & B to present properly to the next obstacle. The careful horse who reads a bad distance and decides not to jump may be SAFER than the “stupid bold” freight train who runs past his distance and speed bumps fences with his knees down (but goes through every flag on the first try). Both horses may need more time at a level before moving up; but Equiratings will give the go ahead to the dangerous one, and a less educated rider will move on up. 10 MERs won’t fix stupid…only education and good training will.
Having one of those horses who would literally jump from any distance, I agree with your last paragraph. There’s a reason I never made it to Preliminary with my guy, and that was one of them - he was so freaking honest that he rarely stopped at a bad distance, and I was such a conservative, cautious rider that it would honestly frightened me that I would come in too slow at a Prelim size table and he’d miss horribly and not stop. That’s why I was so excited to have the Modified division appear - we had run dozens of Trainings successfully, but it was starting to get old. 
Also, FWIW - slightly off topic - I’m shocked that the minimum horse age to run Prelim is still only 4. Way too young IMO.
If the USEA is serious about safety then they should empower and encourage officials to make these hard decisions and back them up when they do. Honestly, if someone can’t enforce the rules against a BNR or a friend of a friend, then they shouldn’t be an official. However, I agree that there generally aren’t enough paid licensed officials watching cross country. The TD can’t be everywhere at once. Changing the rule to allow the course designer to also flag dangerous riding is a good step.
Calling a ride dangerous is not arbitrary: it’s discretionary. There’s a very big difference there. Arbitrary is something that has no basis in fact, like deciding that 6 or 8 or 10 MERS qualifies you to move up to prelim (because make no mistake, that’s what you’re telling people by licensing based on that criterion). Discretion does involve judgment calls, and I recognize that those can be uncomfortable and inconvenient. I also don’t care.
I’d also like to raise again the question of whether the proposed change would actually have impacted those who’ve recently fallen at P. That leaves aside the very relevant question of the facts surrounding those falls (as well as penalties generally).
Well, that would be one way to slow some people down. Make the minimum age 8.
With the amount of dangerous riding I’ve seen, why isn’t the event pulling up more riders? I have seen a select few who are a constant nail biter to watch, but never seem to be pulled up.
I take this thread quite personally. Mostly because I’ve failed so many times at Training and just kept pushing. But it took YEARS. I always wanted to go Prelim, I was consistently placing in the top 3 at Training level. My dressage and show jump are good, my xc is spotty sadly. I lack confidence and my horse is a spitting image of my brain. We’re a tough team.
I’ve run 7 Prelim now. I’ve completed 4 with run outs in all of them, I’ve retired at one and been eliminated from 2.
Although my last Prelim run at the end of 2020 was the most fantastic run of my life, but I had a letter beside my name instead of a score. I was lucky to be allowed to finish. I was not dangerous, IMO, just uneducated with the questions provided. The run out that cost me was at a table that was uncalled for and extremely unexpected from my horse, which is unfortunate. I personally find it hard to mimic these questions when schooling as they are not generally an option where I school.
I am your average amateur. I run one event a month, I can only afford 2-3 lessons a month, plus 1-2 schoolings a month. I work 8-430, 5 days a week, with the additional weekend job to fuel my hobby. I live in Canada, our events run from May-ish to October, which gives you 6 runs at one a month, if you’re able to complete all.
I have the most spotty record unfortunately. It’s embarrassing. When we’re on , we’re amazingly on and come home with usually a 1st or 2nd place, and when we’re not on… its bad and everything goes to poop. I have worked extremely hard to be consistent and work hard every single day to better myself and my horse.
I 100% agree with upping this rule to more qualifications before running a Prelim. I’ve seen my fair share of riders at Training who really just need to stay at the level and keep working at finessing it. I am clearly someone who has struggled to upgrade with my 14 year partnership horse. Maybe I’m just special or truly suck, but I do think this rule is more for safety. I also am conscious of my horses legs, there’s a reason why we’re a 14 year partnership, because he’s not run constantly.
Would I be a better rider and have a better record if I could afford weekly/daily lessons, absolutely, but like all other amateurs, that’s not an option.
Just my two cents.
Will it be hard in the smaller eventing area’s, yes. But for the bigger area’s it’s needed.
But imagine if you actually had Modified available as an in-between.
I personally would have LOVED to utilize that level during my move up, but it’s not available at any venue within a 15 hour drive. There needs to be a big push to help organizers make Modified more widely available, IMO it’s a crucial piece of this puzzle that everyone outside of Area 2 and 3 just plain doesn’t have access to. To me having Modified is much more “bang for your buck” when it comes to safety and preparation for the masses. I would get a lot more out of that than I would from exhausting my horse with travel and running his legs off at endless Trainings.
100%! This is just being introduced and is only at 2 events near me, one is 16 hours away and the other is about 3 hours away. I would have excelled with this option. I truly hope more events take on the Modified as it would’ve been a huge game changer for me and many others.
I was thinking more along their other rating systems, like the average scores etc.
This the exact same scenario for my girl. I even took pretty much two years off Eventing to work on rideability with her and just did one event a year at the end of the season.
She is just now getting ready to do Prelim, but I am also smart enough to know my limit and what’s safe and not safe. She would 100% jump around Prelim easily but before it would have certainly been dangerous if we got a bad spot.
The thing is I know a few riders here that have a similar scenario and are planning on upgrading this summer. As in their horse will jump anything but runs at the fences and takes long spots for 2/3 of the course. But they lack that insight to keep them and their horse safe.
How do you convince someone who isn’t ready when they are hell bent convinced they aren’t “one of those” that isn’t? It’s impossible especially when they people don’t have event coaches!
Who is doing modified three hours from you?
I know Oakhurst and SC?
What can be done to encourage this level to be developed? Fundraiser? What about a survey showing how many need and would use this level?
Oakhurst is 3 hours from me, they’re running and Foshay has the modified. Who’s SC?
I talked about it in my USEA survey regarding the rule changes and have said it to anyone who will stand still long enough to listen. The big roadblock is that it’s a cost factor for organizers - building new jumps is an upfront cost and not particularly cheap, of course. I’m not sure what can be done by USEA to assist or encourage organizers to build it. I myself would be happy to donate to a fundraiser for this and have said so to event organizers, committee members, and USEA. I honestly believe that Modified is a, if not the, key factor to helping increase safety in that T-P moveup.
I do know that if I see one more east coast pro responding to the T-P moveup safety issue with “that’s what modified is for, people need to utilize it and stop rushing” I’m going to have a freaking aneurysm. I WOULD LOVE TO DO MODIFIED, WE DON’T HAVE IT.
Stevens Creek. They also have it. Oakhurst is also running the modified 1* this year!!
@MsRidiculous yeah that’s helpful. I think you are right about Modified being the savour. Why was it even created if not to be used.
I think some riders might hit modified and be happy there too. Not needed to go higher. Or do a Mod and then realize nope, not quite ready.
Recently a friend of mine got a DR warning for going Novice stadium on a pony. Pony was not fast nor dangerous. Time allowed was 105 seconds she finished in 85 seconds. Official did not want to watch her video. Her trainer thought that they confused her horse with the horse before who was very very fast.
So while I agree that officials should feel like they can give out DR penalties, there needs to be some form of appeal that actually works.
I think we need to make rules developed by people who love eventing AND safety. Often on COTH I see people who seem to hate eventing wanting to make rules under the guise of making eventing safer when they actually they want to kill the sport.
I think rule proposals are often like that, we see some pretty whacked out proposals made by people who are influential in their heads only, and their proposals don’t go anywhere. But I think that gets in the way of actual changes for good.
These are both really key points that bear repeating. And I say that as someone who has mentioned the XCJ10 rating a few times in this discussion. These are problems that need solutions (I think the second being easier to solve than the first) if we really want to deal with this puzzle properly.
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