Thanks, I was actually wondering if the horses who you looked at that didn’t fit the qualifications he listed jumped around clear? Or had falls at rolex or after?
Ummmmm, not sure about every P horse, but mine didn’t get great D scores with me BECAUSE I’M NOT GREAT AT D! It makes me tense (unlike XC), and you know how TBs feel about that.
I didn’t spend the time slaving at D: my horse was 18 with an old suspensory. I spent the time conditioning him very carefully, learning to gallop him, and learning how to ride him on XC. He loved XC and was a master at it. No way I was going to squander that. LOL
Yes, it’s a 3 phase competition, so why so little respect for the XC in terms of the skill required?
I was very surprised that DW didn’t appreciate the schoolmaster situation.
6 Likes
It’s not a lack of respect for XC, it’s pointing out how many people want to ignore that riders should also be good at D and SJ.
If someone had a terrible XC horse but good at SJ and D would the horse be continued to push in Eventing? Not likely. But we do that with horses who are good at XC and not dressage or showjumping.
I think before it was easier to get away with it but the courses are so technical now, they want riders to be skilled in every discipline. Just my opinion, in a sea of many lol
ETA I think they are thinking the inexperienced riders on school masters aren’t exactly the safest at Prelim anymore. But that’s just how I have read things, could very well be wrong.
4 Likes
Oh, gotcha. My original post was focusing only on horses that finished in the top 10 at Kentucky in 2019, so they all jumped around clear. Of that list of 10 horses, 2 have horse falls on their record from other events (one of which occurred after Kentucky 2019). Both of those horses finished in the top five at Kentucky 2019.
1 Like
It would be nice to know what data they considered, but everything I’ve read and heard indicates that they’re operating on some sort of general sense.
Unfortunately I’ve absolutely seen people push horses who are good at D and S but not XC, and I’ve seen it at all levels. I’ve also seen too many horses ace the D and S and be scary as hell on XC. Starting to think I’m too old and have seen too much over too many years!
3 Likes
Interesting thanks for sharing. Curious how scores also differ for pro/vs non pro.
Yes I think there is a lot of interest in the data. It does say they consulted Equiratings so hopefully there was legit data.
Then I wish they would show us the proof of that in the statistics, not just anecdotes. I really think it is detrimental to the future of the sport, including the upper levels, to reduce the opportunities for riders to get experience on more experienced horses.
9 Likes
Is there a list somewhere of falls - horse or rider - at P over the past few years such that we could look at who’s having trouble and what their qualifications were? It doesn’t feel quite right looking people up who’ve had problems, particularly not knowing the context, but it would be nice to know what impact, if any, the proposed change would have had.
At least it would matter to me whether the increase in MERs would filter out problems.
2 Likes
Hmm, I do appreciate Danny thinking he is concerned about safety and nothing else, but he displays a lot of contempt for anyone who is not an upper level rider in Area II or III. If this rule goes into affect and we see an increase in reckless riding at T (gotta get that double clear, no matter what!), will he admit he was wrong? If this is the mindset that came up with the rule, no wonder it’s so punitive.
Have any studies been done about a correlation between distance traveled to an event, and falls? We know traveling is stressful and tiring for horses and riders, and forcing people to stress themselves and their horses to the max by traveling to far away events seems like it would make falls more likely, not less. And we do already have rules to curtail dangerous riding, why can’t we increase enforcement of those?
9 Likes
Yea I’m not quite sure why they left the data out… everyone wants to see it.
I saw the one stat they shared was riders rates of falls at Prelim per category:
UL: 1 in 39
Class A: 1 in 349
That’s a huge difference and hard to ignore.
Just some more random thoughts. Just today I have seen 2 ads looking for packers for nervous riders to event. In one ad the poster said the kid is absolutely terrified/ scared to death and needs a horse that will 100% make it across the finish flags. Another ad said the same but about an AA.
I get why they want these for clients, but at what point as a trainer do you say look- if you’re that nervous Eventing isn’t the sport for you. This is exactly why Eventing becomes dangerous. People on course who not only are not experienced Eventing but they are down right terrified to be on XC.
I would love to hear other people’s thoughts on this, and whether others agree or disagree with me.
15 Likes
Or they could be like me. They want to do it. They can do it. But at shows (events) the stage fright gets the best of them.
Cross country schooling day is great. Doing a hunter pace, all is great. An actual event … nerves.
So a horse that the riders nerves do not cause the horse to become a wreck is what someone like me needs.
(I do intro tiny jumps.)
3 Likes
I posted not long ago asking where I could find USEA safety stats and, though I got many helpful suggestions, no one could direct me to published stats for USEA.
1 Like
That’s not what I’m asking, I’m asking about this specific scenario of riders who are terrified to go XC or by these ads even terrified to ride.
Or are you saying you are terrified? To the point you have to ride a horse who you just sit on and point?
I am saying I can see an ad being written like for someone looking for a horse that is something that I would do well on. A horse that does not feed off the nerves of the rider. A horse that knows its job and does it well, even when the rider is not riding to their best.
The only way I can see that you do not get this is that you do not understand that there are people who are perfectly capable riders who get crazy nervous when they compete.
5 Likes
This is my impression too. I agree with his points about the importance of safety requirements, and that Prelim is an international level and should be approached with that level of seriousness, but there does seem to be an element of “too bad, so sad” at the fact that a huge chunk of amateurs will now not even be able to consider going Prelim as a long-term or “perfect world” goal. I think a lot of the backlash against this isn’t that people object to more safety standards, but the increasing divide between “lower level” and “upper level” riders and USEA’s general attitude toward each.
If the USEA’s stance is basically going to be “Prelim is a professional level, it is not a realistic level for 99% of amateurs, everyone get used to it,” then what is going to be implemented at the Novice/Training/Modified to keep those ammies in the sport? Actual Modified events in the western half of the US? A Modified long format? More long formats in general? Some kind of epic West Coast Amateur-Only Championships where everyone who goes clean XC gets a magnum of champagne?
Going Prelim isn’t anyone’s right, and it’s certainly a level that one should be extremely prepared for and “earn” the right to compete at. But if that’s now impossible for lots of riders to even attempt, how many are just going to drop off into other disciplines after running T for a few years? I’m looking at this from the perspective of someone about to move to the West Coast and considering switching back to eventing. I don’t think P would have ever been in the cards for me, but the overall tone of this conversation makes me think maybe I should just stay in jumperland and keep working my way up there.
11 Likes
But someone that incapacitated by nerves can not be safe riding xc because horse and rider must be a team and work together to read the terraine, read the fence, agree about speed and balance, deal with the multitude of complexities. Riding cross country requires judgement and some basic self-preservation by both parties. Nerves before, fine, but on course, nah. Lack of confidence in a rider when running xc can be as risky as over-confidence and I have seen the consequences. Fortunately, at lower levels it is usually a slow rider fall when the horse stops. This is where education can play a huge role in building confidence as well as skills.
A point and shoot horse might work fine in a hunter arena where they do the same job, day in, day out, round the same course of collapsable fences (warning, catty comment coming up: which seems to be the basic business model for many trainers) but xc course change from minute to minute due to ground conditions, light, sunshine or rain etc etc etc and xc is a joint effort by horse and rider working together. The idea of a terrified teen clinging on to her horse as it tries to jump a xc fence is frankly quite horrifying - and an excellent example of why the MERS are currently under debate.
11 Likes
Of course I get this, but this is not the scenario whatsoever. This isn’t just “nerves for shows” type of thing.
1 Like
I guess this is a case of everyone’s experience being different. I have absolutely known safe, competent riders whose performance anxiety was such that they absolutely required a horse that would not feed on their nerves and spiral up during warm up. Once out of the start box, they relaxed and started to think for themselves and ride like they do schooling. But a horse who jigged or pranced in the warm up or reared in excitement in the start box would completely unnerve them.
I don’t think that means that they’re unsafe eventing. I think that means that they need an experienced horse that doesn’t get too worked up prior to xc.
3 Likes
