I agree, this is a wonderful resource. Jos and Kathy also have a FB page, that is very helpful and informative, and they are both very approachable.
Up thread a poster mentioned breeding her maiden 14 yr old mare. I would have no problem breeding a maiden 14 yr old, I would not consider her ‘elderly’ or problematic.
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The 14-year-old in question would evidently agree with you–she was a total champ. My vet kept reassuring me that if we were able to get her in foal then there was almost no difference in risk compared to, say, a 9-year-old maiden. She got in foal on the second try with shipped frozen semen, had no issues with fluid clearance, and never looked back. Before we tried I opted to do a breeding soundness exam with a swab but not a biopsy. The vet felt good about the condition of her cervix (often the problem with the older maidens who are problematic) and I also knew that her dam had 9 foals starting at age 12 following a performance career.
I was nervous anyway, of course!
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I disagree, I’ve seen some fabulous/healthy/happy broodmares in their late teens who carried and foaled beautifully.
Jos also admins the EquineRepro group on FB which is a great resource. Lots of experienced breeders in the group.
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People can and do breed older mares. My friend had an accidental foal with her yearling colt and her old mare. The mare foaled a healthy baby and she lost the mare about a year or two later (unrelated).
The thing about pregnancy is that while we know there is a reduction in pregnancy rates in aged mares, there’s always a percentage of mares that don’t read the book. Some mares are more fertile then others and may get pregnant relatively easily. Then there are mares that simply aren’t going to get pregnant no matter what you do.
Take a close look at your funds. Decide how much you want to spend on this. I would plan on breeding 3-4 cycles. Talk to your vet and see if they can estimate your costs for you. Some offer breeding packages so find out what it may cost and always plan on spending a bit more then you have budgeted.
If you are doing live cover that changes things and makes it a bit more feasible. Also find out if she retains fluid after breeding as that will need to be managed as well. Not all older mares retain fluid. Many do.
Maybe sure you are okay with throwing away that much money if she doesn’t take.
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Yes, I should have been more clear about the name of the page, I was in a rush. Thank you for clarifying, WB1!
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I agree with your thoughts to go with ET. Older mares are often not any harder to get in foal. But their uterus is not as capable of maintaining the pregnancy.
I would not breed your mare to carry. Based on her age and more on her unsoundness. (Think about how much running around a foal does, and how much the dam would be running.)
I have bred maidens as old as 19. But they were sound. And their uterine biopsy was good.
Hugely unkind to even think about putting the poor old mare through even ET.
Don’t do it.
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Why do you think this, and what are your qualifications to make this statement?
There’s nothing “hugely unkind” in attempting a flush on a 21yo maiden. She would likely need some management tricks, but nothing more invasive or uncomfortable for her than any other broodmare. You do realize an ET donor is only pregnant for about 8 days, right?
Personally if the mare looks great I wouldn’t have an issue breeding her to carry, +/- the arthritis mentioned +/- her cervix and uterine condition. Her dam’s reproductive history would support this.
CuriosoJorge, veterinarian and breeder since 2009
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Well it isn’t something I’d sign up for myself… but it’s a free country, and if you’ve got money to burn and want to give it a try, go ahead and go for it.
Just keep in mind that Zenyatta failed to produce a horse who ever won a race… just in case you think that breeding horses that have great pedigrees and great performance records guarantees anything.
Most fertile time of year for a mare is the longest day of the year. Last week. Repro vets just LOVE people like you!!!
Good luck!
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I think I would find a repro vet that sold the service as a package deal. Not try with a vet that charged by the attempt. Unless you want to throw in the towel after two failed attempts. I had a friend with a middle aged DWB mare, pretty nice mare. She was paying by the cycle and she was in for $20k just for the vet when the mare finally got pregnant. Nice filly but not a world class or top prospect and she never got anywhere near all of her expenses back when she sold the filly.
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Hi Nancy!
Unsure if you know but your tone can be read as quite rude and condescending. But it seems very silly to be so rude to somebody you don’t know anything about, so I will take your reply in the “I’m trying to help” vein.
I’m going to keep the foal no matter what, so don’t you worry about its future. I also appreciate you worrying about my finances, but I am quite solid there. Some people buy a classic car, I would like to have a foal.
And yes, repro vets DO love me. I’m polite, pay my bills on time, and give them work during the off season.
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Yes this forum has made me perhaps think about using the center’s recip mare as they don’t charge anything until 35 days in foal and it includes all medications. They still charge to flush and transfer, but it’s $300 cheaper if I were to use their mare. Paying board for my recip and all the meds makes it about equal after 3 or so tries–so you can see why I’m still on the fence!
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Why?
The OP isn’t considering ICSI, which might be an ordeal for the mare. ET really shouldn’t be that difficult for her.
I personally, wouldn’t have the mare carry the foal, and I think the OP has decided against that.
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I think @NancyM’s response was frank, to the point, realistic, and pragmatic. There was nothing rude or condescending about it. You just didn’t like it. If you’re looking for everyone to stroke you and blow sunshine, this is the wrong board for that.
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“Repro vets just LOVE people like you.” Totally necessary addition, you’re right!
I can see you and Nancy are from the same club! And it was actually completely unhelpful in that in did not answer any of my questions posed in my original post. So yes, from that point of view I didn’t like it. Luckily there have been some lovely answers that actually pertained to my original post and actually tried to help rather than doing that thing on the internet where people who have nobody listening to them irl come to forums like these to make people their punching bag. Hope this helps!
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You don’t see anything. Get a thicker skin.
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lol, okie doke! love that boomer energy!
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How infantile can you get? (Rhetorical question. You may not know what that means, though.)
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Well, aren’t you a peach
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Nancy is a former TB race trainer who has been breeding TBx jumpers on her own ranch for decades, training and competing them. I would trust her response on breeding questions.
Here’s my thoughts after watching a lifetime of horses and humans. Getting pregnant is designed to be extremely easy and pleasurable. However when it doesn’t work for whatever reason and you need repro tech, it becomes extremely difficult, expensive, and uncomfortable. If you own a mare and a stallion you can put them out on a field for a few weeks and pay exactly 0 dollars in repro fees (though I realize that’s going out of style with many breeders. But it absolutely works).
If however you or your horse are aging out of fertility by any metric, the costs to create an assisted pregnancy, with or without a surrogate, are going to skyrocket because it often takes more than one try. Human repro tech costs parents a small fortune because they are emotionally driven to keep spending to get a baby. Horse repro tech costs in a comparable situation of emotional attachment to this particular mare could also skyrocket if the owners keep trying. I expect that the professional breeders that do use forms of repro tech are far more pragmatic about the mare involved. They might be more likely to be after multiple embryos from one quality mare, and they would quit if the repro tech wasn’t working. Rather than hang on pouring money into trying with a mare with compromised fertility.
One solution to replacing a heart horse that comes from a known pedigree is to go shopping for a new horse from the same bloodlines.
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