$700 Pony Driving - Evaluation lesson this morning - page 2

[Reynard_Ridge]

DriveNJ! I was just about to PT you! So excited that you are so close!

I am dead serious (ooo, poor choice of words!) on hiring a trainer to do an evaluation. Someone who I think I could work with ongoing for training would be best of course. I have no ideas about competing the Pony in driving. The idea is quite seriously to provide a safe and fun way for me to work her with my children.

Our driveway is 1/2 a mile long (very hilly, though) and we have 130 (hilly) acres to drive on. We live on Hawks Schoolhouse Road (right off 519). Not the best road for driving, as it has one steep hill and people drive too fast, but I am guessing we could tool around with some degree of safety - particularly if I could get Holland to post some Driving Horse signs and get the local police out on days I want to drive.

[Drive_NJ]

Our horses are right around the corner from you on 519 near 12
Currently Alex is just starting back in Harness - not yet driving again after a looooong rehab
Cooper is waiting going back out to the trainer to finish driving school (winter interrupted that plan!)
We board with 2 other driving morgans.
Again around the corner are more driving morgans in Stockton, hackneys in ALexandria and a new member with a mixed breed pony in Milford

IOW LOTS AND LOTS of drivers near you.
If you are serious in evaluating the pony, there are several trainers nearby - some will come to you.

Let us know how serious you are and we can hook you up with someone who can match your style and what you want as an end-product. I think they are all good enough to tell you if its NOT going to work too!

Loved the assessment of costs by GTD. There are several suitable cart types available in the $1000 range as long as you don’t plan on going diving off cliffs etc. You can generally rig out for “pleasure driving” for less than it costs to get set up as a DQ

[gothedistance]

PS. How small a house in WV, and what part of the state? (You’d be amazed at the prices for nothing houses in Jefferson C. WV)

Anyway, the perfect vehicle for you – a carriage designed for just such a scenario – is a wicker sided governess cart. Cost? Well, here you go…with necessary accoutrements, of course:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Wicker sided Governess cart (at auction, no mfr plate) - $400-500
<LI>Synthetic driving harness (new) - $300
<LI>Leather driving harness (new) - $1,000 on up
<LI>Carriage whip (new) - $20
<LI>Driving gloves (any that you use for riding are fine - leather or string) - $30
<LI>Custom driving apron (made to order) - $50 on upwards, esp if a monogram is desired.
<LI>Custom lap robe - $30 on upwards at auctions, more for real bearskin or a scene from the wild west.
<LI>Common Lap robe - free if it’s a blanket you’ve stolen off of one of your kid’s bed.
<LI>‘Fashionable’ Driving Hat - $100 on upwards if purchased from the very renown “Hats by Katie”.
<LI>‘Everyday’ driving hat - $5-$20, less if on sale at Wal-Mart.
<LI>Color coordinated outfit to match your carriage - $200-$300; $2 if you can find one in a thrift store.
<LI>Low heel leather shoes - $200 for fine Italian leather (which fall apart the minute you step on wet grass), or $7 for cheapo penny loafers, but only if you have a lap robe covering them while you sit grandly in your carriage.
<LI>Bag of lollipops - $3.79 - to keep the kids quiet and not fighting because they ‘want to drive, too, Mommy!’
<LI>Gunk remover - $15.49 - to remove lollipop residue off your carriage after each drive.
[/list]

[covenhill]

Driving lessons in NJ

Hi, just curious as well about driving lessons in NJ. I’m in Washington (warren county). If anybody knows of a good instructor that would be interested in teaching me (beginner driver) and my pony (13.3 h chincoteague who may have had some driving experience in the past) either at my place or theirs please let me know. You can pt me if you’d rather. Thanks a bunch!

[Drive_NJ]

Covenhill - I’ll send you a PT

We are with Hunterdon County Horse & Pony Association and there are a few people you can talk to depending on where you are looking to go with driving.

[Reynard_Ridge]

Pony has appointment for evaulation with driving trainer 7am, Friday, March 31st. Perhaps I should sell tickets to locals to pay for it?

Seriously, she long lines like a champ (in the indoor) and she is acclimating to whips, so, I am cautiously optimistic.

I have also decided that I am not being fair when I call her a “flake.” What she is is a horse who had virtually no exposure to humans (near as I can tell) for six years of her life and then only exposure to me for the next year or so. So, she was very difficult when I got her, mostly out of fear.

And now she is generally pretty well behaved and when she is afraid, she “worries.” But as I have been exposing her to long lining and whips, she has not reacted dramatically, but just gone into “worry mode.” So cross your fingers and wish us luck!

[LostFarmer]

My experience and that of my mentor (A 73 yo that has been starting driving horses for nearly 70 of those years. A a very young boy he even broke a goat to drive to help with his wood and water chores.) it is easier to drive a horse that has a little fear than one that has been over exposed to humans. The pocket pets are harder to drive than one that has no fear and wants to turn around and come to you.

Good Luck

[War_Admiral]

On the up side:

(1) She’s going to have blinkers on after she learns to accept them, so she won’t actually SEE the whip;

(2) I can’t remember whether we had this discussion here or somewhere else, but I remember one where an awful lot of people, myself included, found that their horses are actually BRAVER in harness than under saddle. Avery most certainly is: he’s still a 100% powder-keg of a TB under saddle - the whole time you’re on him, you’re staying alert & looking for what’s going to set him off (THIS time :rolleyes: ). But he’s admirably trustworthy in harness.

Anyway, good luck w/ the eval, and we sure do want pics!! :yes:

[gothedistance]

my thoughts

@LostFarmer

My experience and that of my mentor … it is easier to drive a horse that has a little fear than one that has been over exposed to humans. The pocket pets are harder to drive than one that has no fear and wants to turn around and come to you.

Hmmmm. Hate to disagree but… I’ve never found this to be true. As a matter of fact I’ve taught more than just equines to drive, and my experience is: those animals that are in sync and adore the human are SO much easier to teach (to drive, ride, whatever) than those that have fear issues.

Give me something with trust, and I’ll produce a stellar, solid, happy performer in no time.

Give me something with fear, and I’ll show you an animal that requires huge amounts of time to be invested for confidence building before anything else can be thrown into the mix. Never does one feel that 100% acceptance level, either. Always that shadow of the worry that fear brings will play in the back of the mind.

I’ll take a million “pocket pets” any day of the week over one with fear issues.

RR - define “worried”. I.e.: what does she do??

[jerry]

I have to agree with Lost Farmer on this one. Mine tend to be spoiled pets, in your pocket. It makes it difficult for them to accept the dicipline for training. A “nervous” horse is looking for a way to get along with you and is easier to train.

[Ashemont]

Not sure if I’m in agreement or not on this as it depends on what we all mean by ‘spoiled pets’.

I consider my horses spoiled - but in a good way. They are very well-cared for, well-fed, and much loved. But they are disciplined from day one. I have always felt that discipline breeds security - be it horses, dogs or kids They have to know where the line is and they are happier when they have a ‘job’ - when they know what is expected of them. The old adage that ‘if you expect nothing that is exactly what you will get’ certainly holds true.

My horses are easy to train because they have been conditioned to accept training since birth. They know that I am the Alpha Mare! (Now if only I could get my husband to understand that… but that’s another issue…) Yet they are loved and spoiled with treats and scritches. I use a mix of English and Western techniques and it seems to work. All babies are sacked out, taught to tie, lead, load, etc. They start seeing the farrier regularly as soon as they are born and learn to accept confinement and restraint. But I also make sure they get lots and lots of free time, running with the herd out in the pasture.

Personally I think a horse has to have some brains and some talent for the job you are asking of him. Then you need to break it down into easy steps, not moving on until each one is mastered - and rewarded. We’re always told that our horses are very trainable (most are being trained by their amateur owners) and have great temperaments; I know this is a lot good breeding, but also a healthy dose of good handling - and GOOD spoiling

[jerry]

Spoiled means I have a wife and kids who fawn around on them, so they have no fear at all of humans. They are not undiciplined. If you walk around the paddock, you have close company. I think a horse with a little more worry about what I will do is easier, as I have his full attention.

[gothedistance]

Why, in the name of all the gods, would you want some horse to have a fear of you!!! To have respect, absolutely yes. To have worry or fear – absolutely NOT. Very different concepts. The former will get positive results; the latter can get you killed.

Safe driving is based upon trust, respect, and happy acceptance – for both driver and animal. Fear, worry, and concern should NEVER be part of the mix. Ever.

Especially to those new to driving: I beg to disagree with the post above. Fear, worry, or concern on the part of the animal, no matter how low the level, does NOT give “full attention” to the trainer. What one assumes is a “look of attention” is really a “ready for flight to save myself” stance. When fear, concern, or worry enter the picture, the horse at that point becomes almost completely focused more on their instinct for survival, NOT completely on the lesson. That’s why it takes so long to teach a horse with this attitude.

Given a “spoiled” horse that snuggles up to people, over a horse with fear/concern issues, you’ll have the “spoiled” horse learning at light speed because they have TRUST! The worried horse, however, will take weeks, if not months, to learn the same lesson. The element of accepted trust NEEDS to be there to ensure safety because when the chips are down – and at some point in your driving career it will happen – you want something that will say “yes, whatever you say” to you right away, without hesitation. Horses with fear issues …won’t. They revert to flight instinct to save themselves, and that’s when you discover just how valuable your life really is…

[jerry]

Respect in the animal kingdom is a form of fear. It may be a low level of fear, but that’s what it is. How does an animal “respect” something otherwise? Respect is knowing there are consequences for failing to pay attention. Animals do not have the brainpower to read my bio and respect my accomplishments. The two words are interchangeable to a point. I never said a horse should be scared to death of me. Maybe I lack the ability to put this point across properly. Do you think the alpha male in the herd is respected because he’s a smooth talker? No, get out of line and he’ll make you pay. I have a lot of respect for my parents. Some of that is born from a healthy fear of a good butt whipping.

[gothedistance]

Sorry, jerry. Still disagree. I know you don’t mean to confuse but…your definition of fear and respect are, unfortunately, muddied and co-mingled.

Fear is fear, essentially redirected anger and distrust. Respect is acceptance, approval, understanding. You don’t respect a dictator – you fear them. You don’t respect the ability of someone who can whip you – you fear them.

Respect is born out of mutual trust, never fear. To teach driving to a horse trust must be foremost. Teaching human to horse should not be accomplished the same way herd animals in their own enviroment will deal with herd pecking order. Those two situations are mutually exclusive, and should be recognized as such.

[system]

$700 Pony

I have a Shetland sized Governess Cart for sale. I am in Orange County NY

Betty

[horseyfolks]

Jerry, I find this thread very interesting because it touches on something I have thought about many times. I believe many of us tend to give our horses human characteristics when none exist. The idea that a horse is “nervous” around a person so therefore said horse will search for something to do that will please the human screams of reasoning and the ability to think ahead. I don’t believe those abilitys exist in a horse.

If a horse is “nervous” as you put it or fearful in anyway the reaction is flight and if flight is not an option then being cornered brings on fight impulse. This is the natural behavior.

The statement you made that “respect is a form of fear” is not viable either. If you check the definition of respect you find this…

[LIST=1]

[noun] (usually preceded by `in') a detail or point; "it differs in that respect" [B]Synonyms: [/B]regard

[noun] the condition of being honored (esteemed or respected or well regarded); "it is held in esteem"; "a man who has earned high regard" [B]Synonyms: [/B]esteem, regard

[noun] an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him" [B]Synonyms: [/B]esteem, regard

[noun] a courteous expression (by word or deed) of esteem or regard; "his deference to her wishes was very flattering"; "be sure to give my respects to the dean" [B]Synonyms: [/B]deference

[noun] behavior intended to please your parents; "their children were never very strong on obedience"; "he went to law school out of respect for his father's wishes" [B]Synonyms: [/B]obedience

[noun] a feeling of friendship and esteem; "she mistook his manly regard for love"; "he inspires respect" [B]Synonyms: [/B]regard

[noun] courteous regard for people's feelings; "in deference to your wishes"; "out of respect for his privacy" [B]Synonyms: [/B]deference, fulness

[verb] regard highly; think much of; "I respect his judgement"; "We prize his creativity" [B]Synonyms: [/B]esteem, value, prize, prise

[verb] show respect towards; "honor your parents!" [B]Synonyms: [/B]honor, honour, abide by, observe[/LIST]The source of this definition is.....

http://www.elook.org/dictionary/respect.html

Now we examine the meaning of fear and we find…

1. a. A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger.
b. A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in fear.

2. A feeling of disquiet or apprehension: a fear of looking foolish.
3. Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power.
4. A reason for dread or apprehension: Being alone is my greatest fear.
v. feared, fear·ing, fears
v.tr. 1. To be afraid or frightened of.
2. To be uneasy or apprehensive about: feared the test results.
3. To be in awe of; revere.
4. To consider probable; expect: I fear you are wrong. I fear I have bad news for you.
5. Archaic To feel fear within (oneself).

v.intr. 1. To be afraid.
2. To be uneasy or apprehensive.

[Middle English fer, from Old English fhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/aeligmac.gifr, danger, sudden calamity; see per-3 in Indo-European roots.]
fearhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifer n.
Synonyms: fear, fright, dread, terror, horror, panic, alarm, dismay, consternation, trepidation
These nouns denote the agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger. Fear is the most general term: “Fear is the parent of cruelty” J.A. Froude.
Fright is sudden, usually momentary, great fear: In my fright, I forgot to lock the door.
Dread is strong fear, especially of what one is powerless to avoid: His dread of strangers kept him from socializing.
Terror is intense, overpowering fear: “And now at the dead hour of the night, amid the dreadful silence of that old house, so strange a noise as this excited me to uncontrollable terror” Edgar Allan Poe.
Horror is a combination of fear and aversion or repugnance: Murder arouses widespread horror.
Panic is sudden frantic fear, often groundless: The fire caused a panic among the horses.
Alarm is fright aroused by the first realization of danger: I watched with alarm as the sky darkened.
Dismay robs one of courage or the power to act effectively: The rumor of war caused universal dismay.
Consternation is often paralyzing, characterized by confusion and helplessness: Consternation gripped the city as the invaders approached.
Trepidation is dread characteristically marked by trembling or hesitancy: “They were … full of trepidation about things that were never likely to happen” John Morley.
Word History: Old English fhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/aeligmac.gifr, the ancestor of our word fear, meant “calamity, disaster,” but not the emotion engendered by such an event. This is in line with the meaning of the prehistoric Common Germanic word *fhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gifraz, “danger,” which is the source of words with similar senses in other Germanic languages, such as Old Saxon and Old High German fhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifr, “ambush, danger,” and Old Icelandic fhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifr, “treachery, damage.” Scholars have determined the form and meaning of Germanic *fhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gifraz by working backward from the forms and the meanings of its descendants. The most important cause of the change of meaning in the word fear was probably the existence in Old English of the related verb fhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/aeligmac.gifran, which meant “to terrify, take by surprise.” Fear is first recorded in Middle English with the sense “emotion of fear” in a work composed around 1290.
hm();Sources=Sources | 2;The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Once again, my source is…

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fear

No where in the definition of respect do you find mention of fear as no where in the definition of fear do you find referance to the word respect.

Considering all of this I have to agree with gothedistance. Once trust is established (in the form of no fear) between the human and the animal then the door is opened for training the correct response to the desired stimulus. As each new stimulus is introduced the fear of an unknown (which would not exist if the horse could actually reason) becomes less through the trust of the horse for the human.

While we as all powerful humans may like to think we can train out and control natural impulse (in this case flight or fight) all we can really hope to do is try and control the stimulus that triggers the impulse.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I agree with gothedistance… a comfortable trusting horse is much easier to work with than an on the edge “nervous” should I run or not animal.

Don

[Ashemont]

Wow Don… what did you do in the real world? That’s some interesting research.

I definitely agree that the trusting horse is the best to work with… and I’ve worked with many of both in the 50+ years of horse involvement - breeding, professionally training in both English (dressage, hunters, pleasure) and Western disciplines (I LOVE reining and roping!), and teaching (I still hold an Advanced Instructor’s License from the Commonwealth of MA). The horse that trusts will look to his rider/driver for guidance when things get hairy. To me this is far prerferable to the horse who decides how to act on his own because as Don points out their instincts will be fight or flight.

So Jerry I think it’s a good thing that your horses are ‘spoiled’. Sounds like they just need to learn a little respect and a bit of Natural Horsemanship work will fix that easily.

BTW did you decide on a color for your chariot? I’m thinking red with orange and yellow flames…

[willowoodstables]

ooohhh More RR stories!

I am SOOOOO excited that we will have a whole new personal touch $700 Pony stories as the wonderful $700 redheaded flake makes a try at driving!

You go RR! Keep us posted on your evaluations! You and the little we RR’s will love the “hill and dale” driving with your little $700 Flake. And to beat all, you probably won’t have to rush off to lessons without taking the little wee RR’s with you!

Oh Goody Goody…the $700 Pony is gonna make driving famous LOL

Good Luck RR…can’t wait for updates!

Kim

[jerry]

As I stated as best I could, the comingling of the two words is at a very low level. And regardless of your dictionary, where I grew up fear could give you a healthy respect for some other kids ability. That didn’t mean we couldn’t get along, only that we all knew our place. On my place a horse doesn’t restrain from biting, striking, or kicking because he respects humans. He restrains because it will get him knocked on his ass. Perhaps, as I alluded to, I just used a bad choice of wording. I am 57 years old, I have had exactly one horse wreck of any note. And it wasn’t me he spooked at. And all my horses are user friendly to a fault.