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A message to the Halt Police of COTH

Archives 2018 World Equestrian Games
#41

Yes, and you’ll see that I never made any of the assertions that you’re crediting me with. So put away the rope. I know he didn’t go off course, and the example was intended to illustrate that judging requires… judgment. And sometimes it’s not the correct judgment. Most of the time it is. It’s not perfect.

For crissakes - y’all make watching the Olympics about as enjoyable as having a colonoscopy.

I get tired of the Internet Experts holding forth on how top level riders can’t do this or that. I don’t even care for Anky in any way - but for crissakes leave it. Her fat neurotic horse didn’t halt and the judges scored her anyway. She’s got an ego. Name a sporting celebrity that doesn’t. She’s got groupies and a following and no doubt judges favor her. Tell me something I don’t know.

I’m not a high level rider, and can recognize faults just like the rest of you. But for once, I’d like to see some of these Experts do much of anything. Comparing this horse to a backyard pleasure horse - there’s no comparison. It’s not even in the same ballpark.

The halt is important. Crucial. I’m not capable of this level of riding;and can recognize mistakes when I see them. But honestly - I’m a bit tired of the OP’s pot stirring posts, and also fed up with trying to find a thread that discusses a ride I’ve just seen… only to find it’s a bunch of hens wanting ot lynch someone because of the way they stood when the anthem is played.

It’s just ridiculous.

#42

Who cares about the halt? The rest of the test was quite brilliant. Salinero has matured steadily, he is listening and thinking intently all during the freestyle. At the end he was expecting to still do the piaffe/passage sequence and was ready to go on! Look at poor Brentinna, she barely made it thru the test and her last extended trot was a passagy-behind the leg- resistant nightmare.

Stephan’s ride was really nice, but the tempis were a problem, if you look at the slo-mo replay, there were several that were together behind, and he did not have anyplace in the test to repeat and improve them.

I just read the FEI rule book, and paid attention to the level of difficulty suggestions for the freestyles. It helped clear up some things for me. I was always a little confused as to what was considered an increased level of difficulty. For example, a piaffe pirouette is not considered an increased level of difficulty, but extended canter on a straight line to a pirouette is.

If Mark Phelps can shout and throw his hands up at his umpteenth gold medal, cannot an equestrian do the same at the end of a really good test? If I ever came even close to that type of experience, I would probably just collapse and fall off the horse in tears of joy at the end of the test. When I won the regional third level championship I was so emotional that I was shaking.

#43

[QUOTE=mickeydoodle;3459710]

If Mark Phelps can shout and throw his hands up at his umpteenth gold medal, cannot an equestrian do the same at the end of a really good test? If I ever came even close to that type of experience, I would probably just collapse and fall off the horse in tears of joy at the end of the test. When I won the regional third level championship I was so emotional that I was shaking.[/QUOTE]

Of course they can celebrate. They should celebrate. All I was asking about was the salute. Someone posted a rule saying that failing to salute = elimination. She obviously did not salute. Isn’t that kind of like not going through the timers?

Perhaps I should post this on the “A message to the Salute Police of COTH” thread :wink:

I do think it’s odd that a top dressage horse doesn’t have a halt, though. He looks scary to ride.

#44

Sadly, no GDF for me this year. Two weeks in Holland in April, complete with too much shopping, means GDF comes on the schedule for next year’s travels. :cool:

#45

Please. You’ve been on this board long enough to know better than to think it would be any different. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I truly, honestly do. not. care. who wins an Olympic medal, be they individual or team, in pretty much any sport (although, OK, I was bummed that the U.S. men once again blew their shot at moving on in football … er, soccer). There. I said it. :stuck_out_tongue: I simply like seeing world-class athletes strut their stuff (and, man, do some of those swimmers have nice stuff :winkgrin: ). I do, however, think that the playing field should be level, and clearly, it wasn’t in the dressage judging. It’s not like that’s minority opinion.

Coreene, I know the reason for all the shopping, you skinny thing you. :smiley:

#46

Not a false example - a terse reference to a situation that merited a judgment call on the part of officials. It’s the only one I could think of off the top of my head. I saw the same ride you did. And not intended to “make a case”. That would mean 1) I gave a crap 2) That I would have gone into great detail 3) That each word would have been chosen to justify the actions of these particular judges - for the halt, using previous examples. It was a passing inaccurate reference to illustrate that judging - THE JUDGES - have to make calls and they can be good calls or bad ones. And there’s often bias. I wasn’t emphasizing the details of the RIDE, but the JUDGING.

Instead y’all focused on the fact that I didn’t choose my words knowing that COTH was also full of jailhouse lawyers in addition to internet experts.:wink: We’re quite a talented bunch.

Geez - don’t y’all remember people joking about “The Russian Judge” in gymnastics during the height of the Cold War?

The eventing forum has gotten just as bad recently. People seem disappointed when riders succeed. It’s a little creepy.

#47

Ya know, there’s another way to look at it. The tests say “halt-immobility-salute”. I assume the same is expected in the freestyles, even though it isn’t specified.

So, you could make the argument that she DID “halt”–ceased forward movement–but that immobility was not established/maintained, because the horse continued in a quiet piaffe. So, she still executed the manuver though there was no quality (immobility).

And you could even say that she was saluting when she threw both her hands up, which happened immediately before the horse started moving forward. The rules say salute, but I don’t think they specify what form the salute has to take. The test ends when the horse moves forward from the halt, which he didn’t do until after she put up her hands.

So an argument could be made that what she decided not to demand of her horse was immobility, not that she failed to halt or salute at all.

Just sayin’ (and I’m not an Anky fan, but I do think this argument has become, well, really petty. There was no disrespect in her face or her attitude at the end of the freestyle).

#48

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3459545]
I agree with you. Any horse can get nervous and blow a movement. But my gripe is with not awarding a 0, or a disqualification for failing to execute the movement. Horses are not machines and even the best of them do things wrong sometimes. No problem there. But it should have been “awarded” accordingly by the judging panel. Even a 3 or a 4 is TOO HIGH. It should have been a 0 by ALL judges, because the movement WAS NOT EXECUTED AT ALL. My horse has gotten a 58% on a training level test when she was being a complete lunatic during the test, and it was very much deserved. Horses will be horses, and that includes Salinero. But then it needs to be judged accordingly.

And total failure to salute the judges is inexcusable.[/QUOTE]

Actually a 0 would NOT have been correct as the mark in the Freestyle is for BOTH entry and exit halts and the first halt was a good one.

Therefore the judge has to take that into account. I agree that those that gave 6 and 7 were too high but assuming a 9 for the entry and a 0 for the exit then 5 would have been the correct mark.

It is not elimination if the salute is not performed either!! It is 2 marks off as an ‘error of test’. As a judge, IME, it happens more often then you would think, at all levels and for many different reasons.

#49

Eh, whatever J. Swan. We’re not going to see eye to eye on this (i.e. you say he was off course but now say he really wasn’t and you know that, then it was an example but now it’s not, etc.), much like we’re likely not going to see eye to eye on many other things.

Such is life. I no doubt seem nit-picky to you, but my job is details, facts, details, facts, details, facts and did I mention, details and facts? So I kind of a stickler for such things.

#50

And so was my job. Details and facts.

I’m not at work - and you’re not my managing partner. The intention was to illustrate that judging can be subjective. You are looking at the trees - I was glancing at the forest. Read the post for what it was intended to convey; especially since the poster has twice attempted to place it into context; knowing that the reference was not a very accurate one.

Insisting that you only see the trees means that you need to step back and broaden your perspective.

#51

In her personal blog Anky admits she forgot to salute the judges when she was leaving the ring.
She said the last days had been so incredibly tense for her. She was glad when she could finally enter the ring and when riding the freestyle she felt she finally lost that feeling of tremendous stress she endured the last few days.
As she finished her Freestyle she was so excited about both her and Sallie’s performance and felt such relief that she completely forgot to salute the judges upon leaving the ring.

Her immediate reaction when dismounting was : “this never again”, the competitive stress had been really hard these games to her. Of course now she may not say “this never again”, but this is how she felt immediately after her freestyle.

#52

How does ‘compulsory’ equate to ‘disqualification’ if its not performed? I believe piaffe at GP level is a compulsory move too, but if you do not perform a piaffe at all you DON’T get disqualified, you are simply not marked on the move, i.e zero. The argument that she should be disqualified is simply not true.

People are disproportionately fixated on the lack of halting in what appears to be a desperate attempt to justify their displeasure at Anky’s training.

“”“Well as the commentators said NONE OF HER HORSES HALT Give me a break, why not???”""
Despite what someone else here posted, her others horses DO halt, Painted Black, Krack C, Bonfire, they all halt…beautifully. The comenntator that said they didn’t doesn’t know what they are talking about.

Salinero is a super sensitive horse in a hyped up situation and this is his one weakness (all horses have weaknesses, does that mean we should throw them away when everything else is so damn good?) which is marked accordingly, he is not trained badly, he is not disobedient, he is not fried, he does not deserve to be disqualified, he is not the devil incarnate and Anky does not deserve to be burned at the stake! :wink:

I am so glad many ammies out there can make their horses halt, but how are your transistions, how are your half passes, what is your piaffe like, what is your horse’s temperament, how eager are they to perform super flowing and energetic tests at a world class level, when was the last time your horses danced in a test at international GP worthy of a high 70’s mark? Never? Well then, you need to see everything in context, come on!

#53

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3459516]
An Olympic gymnist doesn’t win the gold when he fails to stick the dismount and falls on his face, regardless how many flips he perfectly executed 45 seconds earlier. An Olympic relay swimmer gets his whole team disqualified if he dives off the block before his team mate’s hand touches the wall, regardless if he can set a new world record with his swim time.

If a horse cannot halt (or better yet - if a rider can’t be bothered long enough to halt) during an Olympic test - they do NOT deserve a gold medal.

When you get to that level you do NOT just blow off the easy stuff because it’s somehow beneath you. Personally I think they should have rung the bell on her for failure to execute a movement. I don’t care what kind of a time bomb the horse is. If he’s so dangerous that demanding he halt would send him in a tailspin, then maybe they need to take a step back with the horse and establish some basics before taking him onto the world stage. It’s an embarassment to her country to not salute the judges. It may not be required by FEI rule, but pretty damned rude to not do it.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, interesting, yet flawed analysis. IF a gymnast falls in the dismount technically they could still win the gold if all other movements were perfomed to a degree worthy of a score and all the other competitors failed to top that score, this is VERY different to your other example where a relay team is disquaiflied for breaking the rules. And as not performing a movement at all, including a halt, DOES NOT have you DQ’d then the argument applying to the gymnast example applies and it is actually possible then for that person to win. Otherwise why score eech move at all, why not just give overall scores for impression - well that would be ridiculous and waaay to subjective to be workable.

If a horse does not perform ONE movement but does everything else much or even sightly better than any other horse whioch also has some low marks for A movement of course it deserves to win under the rules of scoring. Just because it doesn’t please your eye as an overall example of training doesn’t mean it was not the best test under the rules. A personal opinion or a overall reaction to just watching a test is not the same as the judges marking each move, and this is the reason Isabell too was able to win silver despite her horse’s resistance.

#54

[QUOTE=J Swan;3460005]
And so was my job. Details and facts.

I’m not at work - and you’re not my managing partner. The intention was to illustrate that judging can be subjective. You are looking at the trees - I was glancing at the forest. Read the post for what it was intended to convey; especially since the poster has twice attempted to place it into context; knowing that the reference was not a very accurate one.

Insisting that you only see the trees means that you need to step back and broaden your perspective.[/QUOTE]

Le sigh. Ya know what? You’re not getting my point, so I’m going to cease trying to make it. We disagree on the value of your illustration, although you now acknowledge that it was flawed, so we’re both on the same page. It’s all good.

As an aside, facts and details kinda belong in all of life, just not in the office. :wink: And my prospective is plenty broad, thanks. Although maybe you should watch those drive-by glances at forests; they could get you hurt in the real world.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Anky train wreck! :smiley:

#55

Oh - I agree with you that the value of my illustration was poor.

Couldn’t think of anything else except gymnastics… and I just like to watch it - don’t know much about it. So - bad example but tried to make it work and it didn’t.

I’m just covering up the fact that I heart Anky and all y’all are being meanies - she’s my BFF. :winkgrin:

#56

Wounds of Christ, diesel is over $4/gallon, who gives a tinker’s damn whether HRM Anky saluted the judges or not? She probably has supper with them twice a month. I don’t ride like Anky. I damn sure don’t train like her and since the most important gait a field hunter can have is a good halt, then I’m an absolute genius. I don’t spill my flask, can adjust my stirrups, my drawers, whathaveyou. Not much call for 20 meter circles in the huntfield, so I’m a bit behind in the classical training scale. Rhythm we have, I sing when I ride, tempo, yep, got it. Impulsion? Oh I have the impulse to sell the big bugger about every other week or so. Submission? You’re kidding right? Collection? Our piaffe’ in front of the barn when his buddies are in and he’d like to be eating makes Salerno(sp) look like a red headed step child. She didn’t halt, the judges didn’t care and yes ladies (or hens as JSwan prefers, though biddy may also be correct) it is Good To Be Anky! So give up on the righteous umbrage and really, I fail to see why noting individual trees as one is driving by safely on the road can be hazardous to one’s health.

#57

yutube?

Is this test on youtube?

#58

nohing new!

: The Subjectivity of dressage scoring, is nothing new:no:; If you read R. klimkes’book "
Ahlerich, making of champion’" you will see how it can be used to work for horse/rider:yes::cool:

however, think that the playing field should be level, and clearly, it wasn’t in the dressage judging. It’s not like that’s minority opinion.

#59

It’s not the fact she didn’t halt that bugged me so much as the comment made afterward about how she didn’t really care because she knew she won. It’s poor sportsmanship and leadership, beyond just doing the basic transition.

#60

Some people like rules. Some people hate rules. Some people break rules. Some people regard rules as guidelines. Some people regard rules as sacred law. All people do not believe the same thing about rules, rulings, or the people who make the rules. Rules are arbitrary. If one wants the rules to be life or death, then one needs a take the bull by the horns and make the rule breaker pay for the error of their ways.

And some people are Anky, and do not care because they are Queen of the Queens. The only way to have all of the people have the same thought process on rules is to make the rule non arbitrary. Penalties must be in place. Anky has had no penalties so she continues to break the halt rule. It has no effect on the out come of her score so why should she care? Frankly, it is a small point which makes the continuing rule lovers pissy, but she of course does not care one fig whether people care about her breaking the halt rules. After all, she is the Queen. As another person said ~Off with their heads!!!

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