A New Wave of KeyBoard Warriors?

I have to laugh because this exact same thing happened to me, thought process and all :rofl:

I had used a fly bonnet at home, shows, etc for years and never thought anything of it. I also wondered why I saw horses without bridles and thought the same thing. Then one fateful day at a schooling show/mini trial, I hop off my guy immediately post XC due to the heat and he drops his head to scratch his sweaty head on his leg as per usual. I unbuckled the reins since I had a running martingale on him, and then all the sudden I was holding the entire bridle and bonnet in my hands and see his back end running away. He did a victory gallop back to the trailer where my friend and her horse were, so of course she was wondering why my horse came back with everything except a bridle and if I was okay. I got back to the trailer maybe a minute later and he was already grazing in a field as if he lived there, then came trotting up to me when I revealed the peppermint in my pocket (thank you, crinkly plastic wrappers!). I just put the reins around his neck to lead him back to the trailer and it was as if nothing happened. To this day, I only ever use fly bonnets when at home!

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On the theme. Really curious about people’s thoughts on posts like this https://www.instagram.com/p/CwTg2qKLB3G/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

The crux is a top level horse can still win because of force and most horses are unsound?

My thoughts:

In the fifth paragraph, she says:

Selling you tack that doesn’t fit, training aids that do more harm than good, bits to ‘correct’ your problem under saddle, inadequate lifestyles that aren’t appropriate or conducive for the horse, ribbons for poor movement and equitation… it’s everywhere you look.

In the eighth paragraph, she says:

My Equine Wellness Education courses are designed to help equestrians learn key elements about their horse’s anatomy, movement and behavior. They can be found in my bio- follow the links.

When you follow the links in her bio, her courses range from $259 to $525 (though you can save 15% today only!)

Call me a cynic, but “evil people who don’t care about your horse’s welfare are trying to sell you harmful things so they can get rich” followed by “buy my several-hundred-dollar thing because I care about your horse’s welfare and my [online massage instruction?!] course could never be harmful” seems awfully convenient.

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Yeah thats my gut feeling. It very much reads as an MLM. I loosely follow the account, but refuse to hit “follow” out of principal, it is wild to see her gain 10k+ followers over the whole FEI roasting, so I guess for her…mission accomplished. More people feeling that their horses are in pain and being told they can’t trust their vet, farriers, trainers, etc then more people buy her online courses.

Might be a rubbish body worker, but honestly a brilliant consumer marketer.

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Not only that, but being able to say “I am not as successful as [insert top level rider here] because I refuse to be “cruel” to my horses. It has nothing to do with my lack of talent, lack of education, lack of effort etc. No sir-ee. It’s because I won’t be an abuser” has an allure with the do-nothing have-you-tried-turmeric crowd.

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Interesting pile on for jumping/ eventing which I do think is new. And yes, my guess is it’s fomented by the body worker MLM crowd. With a cross over to PETA as many of the comments are anti-riding (the rest sound like riders). I don’t think this crew of trolls would have found FEI jumping and eventing without being guided there.

I also think their low end roots are showing. There’s nothing wrong with being at the low end of horses, you can become a good horse person working with feral grade horses or rescues. But as you learn more, you start to notice the errors that are common to low end horses. Actual starvation, especially if you follow the “rescue” scene. Riders with no seat. Ridiculously brutal bits and saddles that flop and shift. Horrible hooves, old injuries, many horses unhappy or unrideable from injury, conformation, lack of training, bad riders. Etc. Random violence from other horse owners.

That becomes your lens for evaluating all horses. So you can’t see when a horse is thin and fit. You don’t know what top level riding looks like. You have no clue what it means to jump 4 or 5 feet and how that looks different from cross rails. And you can assume every body but you and your favorite rescue is using up and destroying “nice horses” and sending them to auction. When you move up from low end horses to lesson factory barns, you will see some bad stuff in terms of nutrition and tack.

At the low end you also get little exposure to really good horse professionals so you are vulnerable to the first snake oil saleswoman that catches your eye. I have some stories about that I’ve watched unfold IRL.

Now I was at the low end of horses as a teen, taught myself a lot, and learned to hate a lot of the really bad horsemanship I saw, especially from adults. As an adult returning rider, I’m at the low end of nice horses, have found pro support appropriate to my niche, but I can also realistically evaluate care and horsemanship above my pay grade. I’ve never seen a grand prix jumper IRL or on TV that looked anything other than fantastically healthy (we have a Longines cup locally). Lesson factory barns are another matter. But don’t mix up the two.

And it’s also true that the in the low end of horses and the low end of nice horses, there are a number of common scenarios. Person gets a rescue horse or a bargain horse or an older horse, and it’s always NQR with the frustrating cycle of issues that likely put it in the rescue pipeline originally. Or the horse has behavior issues that make it unrideable or even unhandleable. Primarily these are training issues, the owner can’t afford to send the horse out to a trainer for 6 months. They can also be that the rider is timid or unskilled, or that the horse has personality issues (that led to an otherwise nice horse falling through the cracks). And very often these problems are created through bad tack or bad riding by the current owner.

Anyhow there are an awful lot of timid or unskilled riders who end up with horses they “love” but can’t do anything with. Going down the “it’s all bodywork” rabbit hole is easier and cheaper than learning to ride well enough to deal with your problem horse while sending him away for 6 months of boot camp.

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“have-you-tried-turmeric crowd”

Thanks for that laugh.

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I know, sorry that it looked like I was saying that to you. I thought some ignorant keyboard warrior said it was abusive?

I just love how the account says “The equine industry isn’t looking out for your horse. You have to do that on your own”

Then proceeds to tell you about their, you guessed it, business in that same equine industry. Like, what.

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This! Its the 2023 version of blaming the horse. Instead of the “he’s a jerk” blame its the, “he isn’t in perfect 2nd level self carriage”, he prob is in pain blame. Or he needs to be fitter and stronger and sometimes people aren’t willing to realize that getting strong and fit can take YEARS, not months, not weeks, and not 3 weeks of bodywork classes.

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Or admitting that you bought a horse who is too much. Or just isn’t a good fit.

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Oh crap. There’s another MLM lunatic out there besides the one on epic dressage forum thread? I can’t wait until their bodies hit menopause and watch their vessels turn into unruly barges constantly taking on water and trying to stay afloat. It’s sad there is such a market for this fear mongering sh*t.

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“I think, although it may be well intentioned, it’s an incredibly dangerous narrative for horses in sport or even riding in general.”

Excellent point! We as eventers might need to find the sweet spot between the unhorsey public perspective and equine welfare of a sufficient standard to reduce the risk of horse and rider harm. Also, in the past the public accepted equine sport in movies (it’s a show jumper but it may be relevant) such as the horse with the flying tail.

Here’s another challenge. When equine bodyworkers practice veterinary medicine without a license they can cause harm to humans and horses. Why is that law not enforced?

Also, it appears that people working in the eventing sport sector, as well as those working in veterinary research have to deal with some so called animal activists that do nothing all day except for hunting human beings for simply riding their horses. It’s so ironic that the hunt sab crew are human hunters.

When someone such as myself tries to warn eventers about animal rights criminals it’s best to do it privately. My former boss is so good as a veterinarian and an animal rights criminal group that blew up a professors car in California also tried to target him. The criminals got arrested and jailed in Michigan because they threatened another professor due to his calling out the animal rights criminals on his blog. My boss had to quit the university because they made a web site dedicated to making death threats to him. He is skeptical of all non scientist interviews and he doesn’t give talks anymore except online.

To clarify. Professor A (my former boss in Florida) got a death threat website made of him, the Professor in Cali got his car blown up, professor in Michigan that spoke out against them triggered an arrest. Those goons were so well organized that they operated in 3 states. Please please understand and I’m trying to avoid a shoot the messenger fallacy. I’m aware that this is unpleasant info and some horse people tell me that this shouldn’t be discussed.

So, I think as an event rider myself, and a former pony clubber, that these “antis” as my British friends call them are a huge problem, creating a chilling effect against education of the public from truly knowledgeable horse people. Then we get in a catch 22 of constructive and sustainable identification of problems to be solved in our sport eliciting a type of overvalued ideas in people with psychological phenotypes of being rescuers with a savior complex that find out about the problem.

The terminology of equine welfare is delicate in that it is now in a situation where the concept of pain, in contrast to behavior is driving some seriously pathological reactions in the animal rights criminals.

I call them animal rights criminals because their rhetoric and talking points are clear as day to me. Even if they are bodyworkers, they aren’t licensed veterinarians. Their emotional language is obvious, and they don’t want animal welfare solutions, they want to “set animals free”

Even one vet student in the uni that I worked at snuk into the place where birds were kept and let them all out to a certain death. It’s a huge problem. When I mentioned the criminals to other eventers on fb people got upset and told me that I shouldn’t let the criminals behavior and antics be known because it tells the criminals that they are “landing a blow.” I don’t want our sport to be banned because it’s the last horse sport that allows horses to gallop in a big field rather than be in a stall 24 7 or on a treadmill or horse walker and arenas for work. We have to keep our horses truly sound for eventing, there are no destroyed ambling walks, no overriding cadence, no rollkur etc. I also understand that mentioning those concepts could be harmful if done in public

So yeah I’m a person with autism so I’m just trying to be accurate here because I may be stating the obvious according to some. I’m just concerned and trying to tell eventers that science people have been dealing with it and it is made a million times harder when fanatics dog pile over anthropomorphic pseudoscience because they are so aggressive and have so much time on their hands. I actually joined the ebvma because they were the ones that understood it. We had a zoom meeting and we got hacked during the meeting. It’s exhausting

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Monetization of defamation is completely pathetic. It never stops, but I’m super keen to put a stop to it

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I commented on one of the body workers post that it was in bad taste to use extremist statements and fear mongering to drive her bottom line and got promptly blocked. :rofl:

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I’m glad you did that. Now there is a digital trail to ignorance and harm. Like I said, I joined the ebvma. I’m also involved with the science based medicine folks, and the ISES organization. Dr David Marlin has written a great piece on pain vs behavior in regards to terminology and how it can be harmful due to reductionism in the description of equine welfare and anthropomorphic pseudoscientific ideology. https://bio.libretexts.org/Sandboxes/tholmberg_at_nwcc.edu/Introduction_to_Environmental_Science/1%3A_Framing_Our_Study_of_Environmental_Science/1.4%3A_Pseudoscience_and_Other_Misuses_of_Science

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Also THIS! The amount of body workers giving veterinary advice (especially online to horses they haven’t seen in person) is bordering on malpractice.

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Thank you for this. I’ve noticed this as well and I’m not surprised it has a clinical definition.

OMG this so much. I got jumped on a while back (different forum that just happens to have a equine section) because I posted a video of a rider showing really impeccable equitation while schooling a young jumper. Dude’s leg is soooo solid. Of course, it drew a bunch of “omg he’s pulling on the horse’s mouth” and "omg horrible riding he should look like THIS: User posted a vid of a high school Lipizzaner. WTF. So a jumper should go like a Lipizzaner? Who TF says that kind of shite?

I didn’t contest it. Too exhausting. Waste of Time. Pearls before Swine.

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WOW a lot of good gripes in here. I’m onboard. I’m stunned by the “confidently incorrect” asserting their lack of general horsemanship knowledge as TRUTH and COMPASSION for the horse.

I found an instagram account where the woman claiming to be a trainer was saying “control does not equal freedom” or something such. She was arguing that she felt horses should have the ability to “express themselves” while under tack. Yes, really. Bucking her off deemed OK. All sorts of acting out deemed OK. Thankfully there were some smart comments from people who were rebutting her arguments.

I really hope that chick doesn’t take a stallion into training.

Also, I’m really done with the EVERY HORSE IS IN PAIN crowd.

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