A word of warning about on-line auctions and site unseen purchases

[OverandOnward]

I suspect that most people claiming their horse is a certain height have never stick-measured any horse in their life. Most horse people don’t have a stick. And wouldn’t know how to use it if they did.

I also suspect that most people use the height they were told when they bought the horse. For horses they don’t own, someone says the horse is a particular height, and that’s the height.

Recently my friend was looking at a horse advertised as a well-built 16.1h. He was maybe 14.3, skinny, built like a feather. If a small child had sat on him and leaned to the side, he looked as if he would probably fall over. He looked as if it would injure him to have a full-grown adult sit on him. I have no idea how anyone could have believed he was in the remote neighborhood of 16h, much less well-built.

[risuenaVT]

Isn’t there also a thing, at least with most English disciplines where 16hh and taller horses go for more money than 15.3 and lower?

Which makes sense to me, as a shortish adult who is 16hh herself. I’m not sure any of the horses I’ve ridden as an adult have been officially sticked, but 16hh-ish is generally my happy place. I can manage tall ponies, I’ve survived some 17.2hh horses, but like 15hh to 16.3hh is perfect for me.

My lease is reportedly 16hh, and that feels pretty accurate, I even think it’s possible he might actually be 16.1? The other barn I ride at? They’ve got two lease/sale prospects that are listed as 16.1. I’ve ridden them multiple times (even took my lease over for a lesson and the barn owner said he was bigger than she expected). There is no way they are bigger than my lease. Another horse they’ve had me start riding recently is listed as 16.2. She is very thick and takes up a ton of leg (not that I have much leg to take up), but I can see over her withers just barely, so no way is she 2" taller than me… She’s shorter than the supposedly 16.1hh horses, though she does feel big just because she is so thick.

I mostly just think it’s funny how varied and inaccurate horse heights tend to be (also, adding an inch or three to heights is not unique to horses - I have friends who have met many professional human athletes who are almost always at least 3" shorter than their official heights).

And, as someone who is hoping to start looking to buy a horse in the next year or two, I am glad that I’m okay with hony-sized.

[OverandOnward]

@risuenaVT

(also, adding an inch or three to heights is not unique to horses - I have friends who have met many professional human athletes who are almost always at least 3" shorter than their official heights).

This is notoriously true of NFL players. For any individual player, trying to figure how different the listed heights are for this one player, starting from the draft, through various teams each with their own measurements, along with publicity material from agents, and a range of numbers among sports journalism, in some cases varying up to 4" … wait what? He was reported at 5’11" by his first team at age 24, but now articles using stats from his publicity team say he’s 6’3"?

The source of the heights reported is often the same as with most horses – they got the number from some other source or person, who got it from yet another source or person … anyway, not from their own measurement, which they’ve never had the opportunity to do.

The year a particularly short QB was a prime draft pick, during the draft convo, journalists and commentators were trying to get retired players to walk by him and report back with their own assessment. Thus generating a whole other collection of height numbers! One of the retired players just said that “after the snap, he’s going to need to jump up on a step stool to see over his own offensive line”.

[Renn_aissance]

@OverandOnward

I suspect that most people claiming their horse is a certain height have never stick-measured any horse in their life. Most horse people don’t have a stick. And wouldn’t know how to use it if they did.

Hey now. I went to pony camp. I learned how to use a USEF regulation stick. And from that experience I know I am 17.1 hands at the top of my head with boots on and about 16hh at the eyeballs. It’s very convenient to know that if I can see over the withers, I’m probably going to be too big for it, unless it’s built like a Mack truck.

Hands up the other COTHers who learned how to use a stick in this method…

I haven’t had a use for this skill in some time, so I’m not setting out to card any ponies, but I feel good about my ability to separate a small from a large junior.

[Simkie]

@Renn_aissance

And from that experience I know I am 17.1 hands at the top of my head with boots on and about 16hh at the eyeballs.

Haha, hello fellow 5’9" person! It’s super handy, isn’t it?!

I don’t know why more people don’t use their built in stick! Knowing how high your own eyeballs are makes it pretty straight forward to judge horse height

[Dr_Doolittle]

Yes, I do that too! The top of my head is even with my older mare’s withers but since I’m now old (and full of arthritis ) I’ve shrunk at least a half an inch. I line up with my younger mare’s withers now, and if I can see over the withers, I know that they are small horses - or ponies.

It’s a little harder to gauge when the withers are well over the top of your head, but I put my hand up there and see if I can measure the additional height between my thumb and forefinger.

I also measure jumps on my body. Prelim Is approximately boob height

[TheJenners]

@Scribbler

My mare sticks at 15.3 when relaxed and 16 if you ask her to do a belly lift.

I thought my mare was right at 15.2 and a half, I measured her at age 4 about two weeks before breed inspection. She was a hair under 16h for her official measure. I’m pretty sure she’s back down to 15.5 and a half again

[TheJenners]

@Simkie

I don’t know why more people don’t use their built in stick!

I have Napoleon Syndrome tho. I am not 5’4’’ even if that’s what my DL says. I constantly think I’m the same size as most other people until I see video or pictures. I can never guess height correctly, I know I’m short but I still cut off height on most people until about 5’10’’ and then I start getting more correct. A 5’7’’ person? My height

[luvmyhackney]

I’m 15.3 and my bestie has a mare she says is 16.1, I can see clearly over the mares withers.

Once they get higher than my head I can’t judge except bigger than 15.3/16 hands.

[OverandOnward]

I used to be able to guess fairly accurately based on my own height, with the bridge of my nose at 15hh. But over the years chunky hiking boots worn around the barn, then a set of Ariat barn boots with a thick sole, and then sometimes in regular paddock boots … anyway, I’ve lost confidence in being within an inch or two of a good guess.

[swmorse]

I was going to mention, if you measure based on your own height, we do shrink as we get older. I’ve been walking around putting my height at 5’5". When I was looking at my health records this summer after my hip replacement, I was shocked to see it said I was obese! My height was showing 5’3". So, I stood beside the wall, marked it with a pencil and then measured. Yep, 5’3".

[Montanas_Girl]

I have purchased/acquired seven horses over my career (I’m not counting the ones that I bred myself). Of those, I only saw two of them in person. As far as their track record of working out?

• 5 purchased sight unseen: I still own three of them. Two were purchased as broodmares and of those two, one has turned out to be quite possibly my favorite riding horse ever - despite coming off the trailer a solid 3" shorter than advertised. The one that didn’t work out was more an issue of bad timing/phase of life than any issue with the horse herself. The other one that I no longer have was a resale project pony who I flipped for 10x his purchase price in three months just by pulling his mane and teaching him to trot over little crossrails (he was a barrel pony previously). I wish I could get returns like that on all my investments!
• 2 purchased after seeing/trying in person: One was my first horse and stayed with me for the rest of his life (nearly 17 years). I loved him, but I have a lot of baggage - mental and physical - from our “green on green” time together. The other was a broodmare who ended up being an evil witch and could not fit into my herd dynamics.

I’m about 5’1/2" (15.0 1/2" hands) tall, which is a very useful reference point for verifying height of “16 hand” horses who very clearly are nowhere near that.

That said, people put way, way, way too much emphasis on stick height when it comes to purchasing horses. Unless you are showing in a height restricted division, like pony hunters, an inch (or even 3+) one way or the other in wither height really has no impact on how the horse feels or rides. Depth and width of body are more important when it comes to taking up the rider’s leg, and body/neck length plays more of a role in the overall look for riders with long torsos. A big-bodied 15 hand horse with low/mutton withers will feel “bigger” than a slab-sided 16 hands that only gets that measurement from its shark-fin withers. Length of stride has only a casual relationship, at best, with stick height when it comes to horses that are within a 4-6" or so of one other - conformation and athleticism/way of going cause most of the variation there.

It’s also important to realize that horses don’t really have one static, written in stone, height measurement. Weight gain and muscle development can easily add an inch+ to a horse’s height, which then “disappears” when the horse loses condition. It’s why I always report my horses’ height as “roughly” or “around” whatever they typically measure.

[axl]

I showed POAs as a kid. Really, really precise measurement required at every show until you can get a permanent height card at 6. My boys could easily vary by as much as an inch and a half on the same day. I often had to ride them down a little just so they would relax and stick at their real height. They were generally doing measurements in the wash rack which I think contributed to the tension.

Shipping from MD to OK only to be told your pony is 1 1/2" over-height is pretty horrible. Walked under the stick on the re-measure.

[Simkie]

@Montanas_Girl

That said, people put way, way, way too much emphasis on stick height when it comes to purchasing horses. Unless you are showing in a height restricted division, like pony hunters, an inch (or even 3+) one way or the other in wither height really has no impact on how the horse feels or rides.

How the horse feels and rides isn’t the sole, single, only reason buyers are looking for a specific height.

[Montanas_Girl]

Okay. Well give me one performance-based reason, then, that the difference between 16 hands and 16.1, for example, is a critical decision point in horse shopping.

[Simkie]

How the horse performs is not the sole, single, only reason buyers are looking for a specific height.

And I don’t know why you’re so hung up on why people want what they want

[Montanas_Girl]

@Simkie

How the horse performs is not the sole, single, only reason buyers are looking for a specific height.

And I don’t know why you’re so hung up on why people want what they want

This is a really, really weird argument to pick.

I’m not “hung up” on anything. I literally just pointed out that (a) height is not actually a fixed measurement and (b) 1" in either direction does not magically make a horse “too small” or “too big” for any practical purpose (other than height-restricted divisions). That’s all.

[Simkie]

@Montanas_Girl

This is a really, really weird argument to pick.

I totally agree, you’re picking a weird argument. People can want what they want for all sorts of reasons, and pointing out that a horse isn’t too small or too big for a purpose doesn’t really negate the laundry list of other reasons people may want something specific.

[endlessclimb]

No matter what it is, no matter the price, I will never own a grey horse. I’ve had the heartbreak of cancer already (with a bay, no less), no way will I basically guarantee I get to live it again.

I don’t even pause to look. It’s a hard, hard no.

[ThreeWishes]

In competitive hunters. A 15.2 horse will get down the lines differently than a 16.2 hand horse.