Well, I wouldn’t lease to get my Bronze Medal scores, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. I’ve actually talked with my trainer about leasing my guy to a fellow student when he needs to step down from the PSG work we’re doing now, so she can get her Bronze scores. My horse has good, pretty straight-forward changes, and her horse may not ever get there. Or he might surprise us all, like my guy did, and Cardoon could just ease into a nice retirement.
[QUOTE=Reynard Ridge;8934563]
In the world of Big Eq, there is a leasing system, with expectation of cost based on riding a finished horse to get to Finals. I have not experienced this kind of ‘system’ in the dressage world.
I was chatting with my trainer about leasing made horses, specifically in the context of bringing rideable, AA friendly horses up to third level and then leasing them out as bronze schoolmasters, and she just looked kind of horrified. :lol:
There are a couple of riders who I know who are struggling with pretty basic dressage principals, and frankly, their horses are lovely, but maybe not all that well suited to their abilities. They dropped a lot of money for really nice horses that they don’t ride all that well. I look at those situations from the outside in (and, really, it’s none of my business) and wonder if a lease wouldn’t be a better option. If we did have a system of having more rideable horses available for learning, as the hunter people do, maybe it could be a positive influence.
I’m bringing my own young horse along with the expectation that we can achieve the bronze medal together. He’s not really FEI material, though. I would seriously consider leasing a schoolmaster to work on the upper levels, if such a thing were possible.[/QUOTE]
I also think that the Dressage World is a little different. And I am glad about it. Yes it is possible (if you find one) to lease a horse and get your scores fast. But in Dressage if you really want to do it correctly both, rider and horse need some years of correct basic work to get to the upper levels. If you skip this time usually there will be a problem along the way.
I think BTDT wrote that the AA rider who leased her horse still needed time and practice to get the 3rd level scores although the horse had no problems doing it.
Dressage really depends on the abilities of both Rider and Horse.
Also in Dressage little things can make huge difference
And for me and probably many others this is the fun about it.
Also there is something else to it. Not sure if its still the way but it was when I was growing up and learned how to ride.
A schoolmaster was something which was honored by everybody. It was a horse which had accomplished something and was trained correctly for many years. Somebody put a lot of work into the horse and the horse gave everything to perform.
Because of that a schoolmaster was something special and the owner honored this as well. And that meant that to get rides on a schoolmaster it was not about the money. It was something about knowing that this was special and it was a big chance to do it.
It was not a system based on money it was more based on emotions.
So I don’t think its bad to lease a horse for the medals, but I also think you get more out of it if you do it with your horse.
If you had asked me this 4 years ago, I would have said no way to a leased horse, I’m doing it on my own. In 2016 I’m older (unfortunately) and wiser and realize that if I’m ever going to do it, it won’t be on my current horse. I’m sure someone with more dressage experience could get him there, but I think he really hates dressage. I hate riding him when he’s this unhappy, and maybe he’s a lifer 1st level horse. I don’t know.
So, since I’m rapidly approaching 65 (:eek:), I would seriously consider leasing IF I could find an instructor around these parts that I like. The latter is the second part of the issue I’m having about getting my bronze.
Obviously the answer is to win the PowerBall, move to FL or SC, buy a nice schoolmaster with a sense of humor, and go for it. Will let you know how that works out!!! 
I’m bringing along my own horse - just started dressage this year as PT after she had Lyme - and my goal is my bronze. She’s 12, coming 13.
My trainer feels bronze is an easy goal for us, I’m allowing 3 years, she’s saying we should be able to do it in 2. Trainer also feels we may be able to get our silver, but that would be a pleasant surprise, not a goal.
I personally wouldn’t want to lease a horse to get my medals as the satisfaction is in doing it myself. But I come from hunterland and I felt the same there, and lord knows there’s plenty of leasing going on in those rings. But to each their own!
If I can’t get my bronze on my mare, her son (coming 3) will pick up the reins, so to speak. He screams hunter but should be able to do 3rd at the least.
[QUOTE=Libby2563;8934560]
I’m hoping there are people out there who want to lease a horse that can do that sort of thing. I am considering leasing out my GP horse, who is 20 now and no longer needs to be doing heavy collection but has a great work ethic and could still do well up to PSG or so. I don’t have as much time to ride him as I’d like and I would love for someone else to benefit from the years of training I put in. He’s not terribly complicated so someone probably could just lease for a few months and get their scores in two shows, but I’d like to find a rider who is also interested in learning from him in the longer term (and who would love on him, hack him out too, etc).
ETA: I think most of us would say there’s a difference between leasing a horse JUST because you want to get your bronze medal, and leasing a schoolmaster-type because you want to learn from it and maybe get your bronze medal along the way. I’m guessing the second option is relatively common.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly what I’m doing and I think it’s working out great for all parties involved. The grand prix schoolmaster I’m leasing is 18, and can no longer handle the rigors of GP work but is great for teaching me to ride the levels up to PSG. I certainly didn’t decide to lease him simply to get my bronze scores, rather than for the knowledge that I can glean from riding a trained horse. And to be honest it’s been a great experience to learn how certain things are supposed to feel, like how a truly collected canter should feel like. There are some things that I’ve tried to learn that I think had I been trying to teach a horse to do them at the same time I would have really ended up confusing both of us!
[QUOTE=Libby2563;8934560]
ETA: I think most of us would say there’s a difference between leasing a horse JUST because you want to get your bronze medal, and leasing a schoolmaster-type because you want to learn from it and maybe get your bronze medal along the way. I’m guessing the second option is relatively common.[/QUOTE]
That’s exactly the difference I was interested in teasing out. Obviously this forum is not an actual cross section of the dressage community, and I am guessing there are strong regional differences, but I was curious if there was a market for the ‘shorter term, get a medal’ type of lease.
PS, I’d like to lease your horse. Shoot, he sounds fabulous! I am working long term on my bronze, so I’d be interested in learning more about the upper levels from him. I have had a long term plan to achieve my bronze medal via starting with unbacked baby, because it’s the thing that I thought would help me the most as a rider. For the upper levels, I’ll take a Schoolmaster, please!
I would absolutely lease a horse for the medals, but to me this speaks of the value of a schoolmaster. I don’t know if it’s “easier” in the sense that you will have to RIDE THE HORSE and anyone who thinks they can just cruise around third or fourth because the horse was trained-well that isn’t true. They default to the level of the rider.
They are hard to find in dressage and that is a real shame. I think we are all so protective of our horses.
Sure, there is more value and reward in bringing along your own horse but to have that experience as a rider is going to help with rider development which will help every horse that rider is on.
I wish we had more proven dressage horses avail for lessons- not just upper level-- the US would be better off and have better seats.
[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8934732]
I wish we had more proven dressage horses avail for lessons- not just upper level-- the US would be better off and have better seats.[/QUOTE]
A year or two ago my trainer suggested I start a business teaching schoolmaster lessons. She thinks it’s a real untapped market. It’s not what I want to do (I’m an ammy with one full-time job and my own business on the side already) but I do think she’s right.
[QUOTE=Libby2563;8934757]
A year or two ago my trainer suggested I start a business teaching schoolmaster lessons. She thinks it’s a real untapped market. It’s not what I want to do (I’m an ammy with one full-time job and my own business on the side already) but I do think she’s right.[/QUOTE]
we all need to ride confirmed horses, all of us. Americans are very much of an independent mindset (I’m riding THIS horse I MADE myself) and that isn’t helpful big picture. Also this speaks to many times people pick a horse that isn’t a good fit for whatever reason- too big, lame, not willing to work, etc
And finally fitness- your average AA (like me) probably isn’t fit enough. I really think it’s not so much the gap in training- we have a lot of good instructors- but people are not setup for success.
My opinion is do these three things and we will see more and more people at third, provided they really want to commit. You have to be more open to new things. Americans are stubborn 
I still think of how people freak out here over my “negitive”, its’ not productive to them. I don’t care, they can batten down the hatches if they want to live in la la land…it was my intention to offer my opinion…just a free opinion… That is the resistance to any little notion of a problem. I get told worse weekly. that is how we learn!
Germans don’t take it so personally, they get on with it. And they kick our butt as a result and the 8yo have better seats than 99% of us.
I want to be as positive as the next person, but reality is important.
you can’t buy this, you have to learn. that is why schoolmasters don’t offer magic. Dang it! LOL
My horse is retired. Because of my age and financial considerations, buying one to bring along is out of the question. I would absolutely consider leasing if I had the worthy goal of a bronze medal.
I also think the second option is relatively common, but I don’t see a problem with leasing a horse solely to get the medal. If you are already competent at third and don’t have a horse, why not? If you aren’t competent at third and learn to ride the leased horse in order to get the medal, again, why not?
I got my bronze on my horse. There are just not that many schooled horses available for lease - I looked for quite a while for a lease possibility to get my scores (4th and PSG) for the judging program, and finally gave up. The only options (VERY FEW) out there required the horse to stay in full training - and if I could not afford that… Around here, that means $1200 to $1500/month PLUS shoeing, maintenance, etc. And the upper level horse for lease is VERY rare - most people would rather sell that horse and use the funds to buy a new horse.
If you want to lease a Training/First level horse, there are plenty of care leases (lessee provides care of the horse), but once you get into serious training, it is a hard horse to find.
I’d LOVE to find a horse to get my silver scores on (I only need PSG, have my 4th level scores). I’d love to find a horse who enjoys showing too, hahahaha - the horse I got my 3rd/4th scores on was a SO COOL boy, but he hated the show ring with a passion. At home, at a clinic, we could do a 70% test:lol:
In dressage, the trained horse lease is a rare thing - and I think it is because it takes so long to get the horse trained. It isn’t like Eq or Hunters - where it is much harder to “mess up” a horse - you just need one that goes around quietly. Dressage riding is harder, training is harder, finding a horse who can DO the work (once you get up the levels) is harder.
I’m a pro (SNT – small name trainer!). I trained the horses I earned the Bronze on. One, an Arab, the other a busted-up jumper with a good sense of humor and a fantastic disposition. Earning the Bronze on my own horses was a dream come true – but some of us need extra help.
Another trainer friend of mine had two young riders who were aiming for the Bronze. Both were struggling with the Third Level skills – not unusual. My friend and I decided these young ladies could benefit by doing some lessons on my (then) Third Level schoolmaster. One thing led to another and both girls earned their Third Level Bronze scores on my gelding.
The following year, the first girl was riding her own horse at Third. The second girl is schooling her horse at Third and it remains to be seen how far she can go with HER horse.
No lease involved. The young ladies paid for their own show entries, trailering fees and lessons on Figaro. They were always monitored and coached when they rode him. Yes, I had to do some "fixing’ in between their rides, but I think that’s normal.
Just a thought for others. Some of my friends thought I was beyond generous – even reckless with my horse. I knew he had the kind disposition to take this in stride. Now I’m aiming for my own Silver (take heart, Oldernewbie – i’m rising 63!).
It was worth it for me to see my guy helping these young people and I felt like a proud Mama when they achieved their goals!
I don’t have a problem with someone wanting to do that - we are not all in a position to own a horse.
Personally, I have a new young horse. I have a goal of bringing him up the levels and getting my bronze medal with him and someday joining the century club. But who knows what the future holds?
As far as the leasing model you imagine, I guess the question is why would leased horses be more rideable than the ones the AAs purchased? Or I wonder if the AAs buying the unsuitable horses would opt for leasing a more suitable horse if they were available, or would they end up paying $$$ to lease the pretty but hard to ride horse anyway. I am not sure having a lease system in place would substantially change the pool of available horses, just the economics. My two cents.
I definitely think/have thought about it - one because I think it would benefit me as a rider to achieve this on a confirmed horse - not so much to get the medal but to get the experience and miles with a partner who has been there, done that. My current horse is an 8 yr old off the track pacing standardbred and I have doubts that he’ll ever make it to the recognized show ring. But the better I ride, the better off he is. Plus it would allow me to ride and show - get my jollies and leave him to develop on his own schedule. He is super fun and rewarding in his own way. Maybe some day we’ll get out there.
The thing that keeps me from doing it is: #1 finding one local that i can board at my trainers. Seems like there are leases so long as you ride with that person’s trainer…and I don’t want to switch trainers. I totally get it and if I were the owner, I’d probably want the same for my horse. My trainer doesn’t currently have people who have horses up for lease. #2 is $. My goal was to get down to 1 horse to have the money to either purchase or find the elusive lease horse. However, my mare hasn’t sold yet AND I just got my 7yr old gelding back after selling him a couple years ago. I’m going in the wrong direction when it comes to the # of horses in my care…:lol: So right now there is no extra funds to lease a horse.
The good news about that is that the gelding has always been quite talented, but a delicate flower mentally. I have my suspicions now, looking back on his history - that i think we missed some health issues that have resolved themselves over time. It seems as though the few years he’s been out to pasture he has grown in maturity and is much more level headed about everything. He is a dream to ride when he’s game for it, and so far he’s been nothing but game. He’s the kind of horse that I have to force myself to stop riding (when he is going well… otherwise hell hath no fury like an upset half-arab :lol:). So now perhaps instead of leasing or buying another horse, I will give it a go with him. Too soon to tell, but I’m committed to figuring out the best situation for him before I go after my riding goals. It is a slow and guarded journey with him.
I think the concept of leasing the horse to show is a great one, but there are a lot of ingredients that have to come together for it to work.
[QUOTE=JLR1;8934329]
Its true OP there are lots of perspectives and the only one that matters is the one you think works best for you. I am finally going to take the plunge at third level next month…gulp! The partnership I have with my horse is everything. A bronze medal even if we just squeak by with a 60.00% wouldn’t mean anything to me if it wasn’t with my horse. However, there are several people I know who have leased or purchased a schoolmaster with solely the intent of earning their medals. There are no right or wrong ways to achieve what’s important to you.[/QUOTE]
Oh, how exciting! Good luck to you! You two looked absolutely lovely when I saw you, so I’ll keep that image in mind and be rooting for you from afar, since I won’t be at the show. 
[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8934732]I would absolutely lease a horse for the medals, but to me this speaks of the value of a schoolmaster. I don’t know if it’s “easier” in the sense that you will have to RIDE THE HORSE and anyone who thinks they can just cruise around third or fourth because the horse was trained-well that isn’t true. They default to the level of the rider.
They are hard to find in dressage and that is a real shame. I think we are all so protective of our horses.
Sure, there is more value and reward in bringing along your own horse but to have that experience as a rider is going to help with rider development which will help every horse that rider is on.
I wish we had more proven dressage horses avail for lessons- not just upper level-- the US would be better off and have better seats.[/QUOTE]
I fantasize about having the time once I get my own business running (not horsey) to be able to work with ranch or reining-type quarter horses and getting them trained to be lesson horses. Just good horses to use for lessons and help teach people. Not for profit, but just to help riders in the area learn, and hopefully draw more riders into dressage with appropriate horses even for beginners to ride.
ETA: To answer the actual question… if I were working toward L candidacy or a rated judge standing, I absolutely would. Personally, I don’t otherwise care enough about the medals to do it. I would lease a schoolmaster from whom to learn, but prefer the learning to showing anyway… I show my younger horse for the mileage and experience and because it teaches me things about our partnership each time we go somewhere.
From where I sit right now the only option would be to bring along my own bronze + horse due to finances. However, if I were in a position to take on a schoolmaster, I would jump at the opportunity. I see it as a stepping stone in my development and growth as a rider. Having access to a horse who can teach would be such an incredible opportunity.
I think this is a sport where there is a strong emphasis on “paying your dues”. Paying your dues often means slogging along at the lower levels for years due to a horse/rider limitation, poor training, etc. When someone skips or expedites that process, I think it can sometimes create resentment from others.
As long as someone acknowledges their skilled partner I have no resentment towards anyone partnering with a schoolmaster. However, when people act as if their schoolmaster knew nothing and the rider is the only reason they achieved a score or medal, it rubs me the wrong way.
I got my bronze this past year on my mare (purchased showing 1st, training 2nd), looking at 4th for next year.
I’m a huge fan of schoolmasters and have been fortunate to sit on my trainer’s I2 horse to see what things are supposed to feel like. And I’m a fan of leasing if it’s the right financial arrangement.
What I’m not a fan of is the lease-to-accomplish-a-goal idea. Is it just about the medal, or about the partnership with your horse? Horses are social, sentient beings who form bonds with their riders and horse buddies. I’ve seen a lot of miserable shut-down horses because they’ve been passed from one person to the next. We’re not talking about cars here!
It sounds like the OP is thinking about a business plan where schoolmasters would be trained to 3rd+ and made available to lease. Earn your medal, turn them back in for the next leasee. Taking the horse’s perspective, that sounds horrific.
Taking the horse’s perspective, that sounds horrific.
Not true at all. My trainer’s former I-1 Regional champion is now a schoolmaster that three people have leased and done very well on – under her supervision. Far from being horrific situation for the horse, it has kept him moving and feeling good. I rode him many times, not in a lease situation, but once a week in lessons for a year, and he loved his work, and still does.
I’m looking to lease an FEI schoolmaster and it’s a really hard thing to do. It just isn’t common in this discipline. I come from H/J land, as i’m sure many of us do, where leasing schoolmasters to learn or move up a level is the norm. My expectations also come from that - I will pay 1/4 to 1/3 of ask price for a years lease plus insurance, transportation and all regular bills.
To be totally hypocritical, I own a PSG schoolmaster and don’t think I could ever lease him out. I just could not let him out of my care. I do however let people lesson on him occasionally because I know how much it can help. I just had a friend lesson on him because she was struggling with leg yields on her horse and he was able to give her the ‘feel’ for them.
Schoolmasters are worth their weight in gold and can improve your riding SO much. I’m looking to lease another not just for my medals but to have another year of education under my belt before I move on to a young horse.
[QUOTE=MaryC;8934973]
It sounds like the OP is thinking about a business plan where schoolmasters would be trained to 3rd+ and made available to lease. Earn your medal, turn them back in for the next leasee. Taking the horse’s perspective, that sounds horrific.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that was the basic idea. This has been a great thread, as it has pointed out several things that I hadn’t thought about. Oddly enough, that it could be a drag for the horse HAS crossed my mind. Part of the business model is that I do have a retirement property. Horses would have a job for life, and then a place to retire.
