Accepting being priced out of the hobby

[candyappy]

@SLW

We never did horse stuff at the highest level but we always did horse stuff with the girls. Even now my horse stuff isn’t at the highest level but it brings me joy and doesn’t have us in the poor house. I wouldn’t change a thing.

I have a 12 year great niece who shows in coastal GA. I’m gobsmocked at the expenses of “local” showing which involves shows in Aiken. Growing up the only overnight horse stuff I did was Pony Club regional rallies. So different now.

It seems that many riders wouldn’t be priced out of their hobby if they would adjust their horse activities to match their income and if even that is not enough just ride for pleasure and keep the horse at a decent but no frills boarding situation. That would eliminate some huge horse related costs .

Many would rather not own, lease or even ride if they can’t compete and that tells me there are people in it for the love of horses and people in it for the love of competing. If they aren’t riding with competition as part of the package deal , then why bother. I don’t understand that.

[Rackonteur]

@PaddockWood

We know being involved with horses is so rewarding and therapeutic.

You just raised a question in my mind – how much does the high cost of paying an in-office therapist of some sort compare with the cost of riding lessons or even owning and boarding a horse? I don’t mean a 6-figure upper-level show horse of whatever discipline. I mean a pleasure horse such as was referred to upthread? And a boarding/lesson facility that is not the latest thing in luxury barns but just has the basics for horse and human comfort?

Last time I looked into therapists’ fees they were running around $150 for an hour’s appointment that consisted of just sitting in an office talking. Not even a therapy small animal.

Could a therapeutic horse facility be economically reasonable? Not a “certified” specialist place necessarily, just a well-run boarding and/or lesson barn?

I would always prefer to spend my money on lessons at a local barn than the same amount of money, or more, to travel to a faraway vacation spot where I would be charged as much, or more, for a nose-to-tail walk trail ride where I’d have no part in grooming or tacking up, let alone a lesson on a strange horse who doesn’t know me any better than I know him.

[Texarkana]

@candyappy

@SLW

We never did horse stuff at the highest level but we always did horse stuff with the girls. Even now my horse stuff isn’t at the highest level but it brings me joy and doesn’t have us in the poor house. I wouldn’t change a thing.

I have a 12 year great niece who shows in coastal GA. I’m gobsmocked at the expenses of “local” showing which involves shows in Aiken. Growing up the only overnight horse stuff I did was Pony Club regional rallies. So different now.

It seems that many riders wouldn’t be priced out of their hobby if they would adjust their horse activities to match their income and if even that is not enough just ride for pleasure and keep the horse at a decent but no frills boarding situation. That would eliminate some huge horse related costs .

Many would rather not own, lease or even ride if they can’t compete and that tells me there are people in it for the love of horses and people in it for the love of competing. If they aren’t riding with competition as part of the package deal , then why bother. I don’t understand that.

I agree with this. There was too much emphasis on shows even when I was a kid, but I think it’s gotten far worse.

Take a few lessons, then it’s horse show time! Drop several hundred dollars on new clothes to look the part! (Even though the show is at home) Now it’s time to move onto the bigger show circuit! You need a new pony to be competitive!

I wish we didn’t put this pressure on ourselves. Even programs for kids like 4H and Pony Club put a lot of emphasis on the horse show part of riding.

[rulex]

@Texarkana

But, I think we horse people have also created our own demise in some ways. Because of all the things you don’t have: all weather footing in an arena , arena lights, hot water, etc. “We’ve” convinced people they need those things to enjoy horses, along with many other extras.

Well I’m an example of someone who has pretty much always ridden at facilities with an indoor or covered arena and for the first time am now boarding at a place without. Because there are no options where I live. I’ve posted this before, but all the facilities are either not maintained, or don’t take boarders. There is one facility but you have to be in their H/J program and they have a waiting list.

Let me tell you, it’s been a rough adjustment. In fact today the weather is so awful there’s no point in even trying to ride.

@Amberley

Every single barn in this area that’s sold in the last 10 years has been bought by a trust funder or a rich wife. Every one. Real professionals are all leasing or moving out of the area

Yup. Or they get bought by people not even interested in horses. A couple of years ago I heard one of the local facilities previously owned by an olympian was sold and non-horsey buyers paved the indoor.

@seabreeze

I have a very typical “backyard” barn. I have ample pasture, but my designated riding ring is only usable half the year and the rest of the year I ride in the pastures.

I haven’t gotten a single nibble. The type of person who would normally be interested in this setup has, I believe, already been priced out of horses.

I’m curious if you can accommodate horses that can’t be on pasture? One of the factors that limits my options for board is having a horse that needs to live in a dry lot. 20 years ago having a horse on pasture was the norm but it seems more and more horses now have metabolic issues for whatever reasons.

[seabreeze]

That’s a good point, @rulex . It’s a good setup for hard keepers. My own horse is in a muzzle. I love the acreage, however, because it’s so good for the horse’s mind and body.

[FjordBCRF]

@Texarkana

I agree with this. There was too much emphasis on shows even when I was a kid, but I think it’s gotten far worse.

Another agree. I grew up showing and I think it’s because that’s just how it went once you were a regular lesson kid. I started in 4-H and of course you had to go to fair as a minimum, but there were also the summer shows leading up to fair. When I got into high school, I moved to a barn that did the next level up shows…between 4-H and Quarter Horse shows. Did 4-H during that time too and All American Youth Horse Show in Columbus. Mostly liked it, but I didn’t realize until I was pretty burnt out how stressful it was on me.

I was a non-equestrian major at a college with an equine program and took lessons every semester, but only did one show and that was because I wanted to, and I was glad I did.

Now with my fjord, we did a dressage schooling show in the fall last year and he did amazing. We’re schooling western dressage and working equitation now, but I don’t know that I will ever work to be competitive with him. It’s good brain food for him and I’m enjoying training him up from scratch with just on the ground instruction. I enjoy doing clinics with him as well. At the end of the day, I just love doing fun stuff with him, trail riding, hanging out at the barn and just destressing from work. He is a very good buddy.

It is a definitely a form of therapy for me as mentioned above, and I think it’s great on the physical activity side of things as well. I see plenty of horse people still horsing well into their later years…90’s in one case!

[rulex]

Yes it is so nice for them to be able to go out on pasture. And carefully managed, mine can too. I’m talking like later summer when the grass isn’t so rich and for a short window first thing in the morning when the sugars are lower. But that’s a lot of management I don’t expect from the average boarding situation. So it’s easier for me to insist on a dry lot unless I know I can trust the care enough to manage the pasture access appropriately.

[meupatdoes]

It is not.

If you want to find a long term retirement home for a horse, you have to give the horse up while it can still be useful in a lesson program or with somebody else, with a hefty no sale clause and eyes on the ground.

I just sent my 15 year old OTTB to a new home at an eventing/dressage program with lots of working students and kids for exactly this reason. I wanted him to have a good home but not be on my tab for 10-15 more years ($150-200k). There is a hefty no sale clause with $8k liquidated damages automatically triggered if they ever can’t produce the horse on their property within their care custody and control, I sent him on “permanent free lease” and retained ownership, I am still sending his smartpak every month, friended on FB, and have eyes on the ground in the area also looking out for him. I took $0 for him, sent him UTD everything from shots to teeth to sheath, even included his two smartpak blankets with that ten year guaranty and said call me if a blanket rips, these are guaranteed. When it eventually comes time to make the EOL decision for him, I will be involved in the conversation and if it’s the kind that can be scheduled a week in advance I will travel several hundred miles to be there.

He was going GREAT when he left and I cried and cried as the trailer pulled out of the driveway. I would have loved to have several more seasons with him. But he needed to be going great and have years and years left in him to pay for his own retirement.

The key to giving a horse a good ending is usually giving them up before YOU are ready. People who wait til their horse is no longer ridable to find their horse a companion home are, imo, years late.

[beowulf]

@candyappy

It seems that many riders wouldn’t be priced out of their hobby if they would adjust their horse activities to match their income and if even that is not enough just ride for pleasure and keep the horse at a decent but no frills boarding situation. That would eliminate some huge horse related costs .

Many would rather not own, lease or even ride if they can’t compete and that tells me there are people in it for the love of horses and people in it for the love of competing. If they aren’t riding with competition as part of the package deal , then why bother. I don’t understand that.

I think you can love both and still be priced out while not showing. I look at horses as my passion, and showing as my very expensive luxury. I can tell you that one real rated show (which is all I will typically do one season) is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost[s] associated with caring for my horse. I don’t have the luxury to show often but I do love doing it - it’s a good mile marker for how my training is progressing. One show probably costs me ~$600 all in, but that horse costs me that a month in food/shoeing/routine vet maintenance. Before factoring in associated cost[s] of this horse like utilities, RE tax, water, supplies, my labor and time, god forbid a large vet bill, etc.

I keep my horse at home. It used to be that keeping a horse at home was a major way to keep costs down. Now, I think in this area that’s not the case anymore. It actually might be cheaper to board out.

I agree there are people out there whose sole goal is to compete, and that’s sad. But I’m also seeing friends – some lifetime, long riding friends – being priced out of the sport who have no competition aspirations, but can’t afford the horse because board and associated costs are so expensive.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Beowulf, I completely agree. Also the emphasis on getting riders showing immediately is partially because barn owners are so strapped cost-wise, and coaching at shows, leasing horses, commission fees on sales horses, are all often how they stay solvent.

Are there still some rough barns around in my area? A few. I don’t own, but according to my friends who have tried such situations, a lot of them don’t offer great care, or facilities where it’s feasible to ride. It’s easy to say, “sure, you don’t need a fancy barn,” but it’s tough to pick up the slack making sure your horse is properly fed every day (getting supplemental hay and shavings), doing lots of the barn chores yourself, getting to a barn to ride in a muddy field without lights (if possible), having to trailer out for lessons…the list goes on. I know people who don’t want to show but end up in “show barns” and hate the pressure to show, but board there just because they can’t find quality care elsewhere.

[endlessclimb]

I will second/third/fourth the idea that showing is way too emphasized.

When asked what my goals for my young horse were this year, I said “get her out on the trails more” and got looked at like I had three heads. I might go to a schooling show or two, but I’ll decide last minute. She needs MILES and not in a show ring. That doesn’t mean I am not riding through First level tests and wondering what she’d score, though. It’s just not my driving reason to have a horse.

And along with that - my young mare is pretty sketchy out of the ring at the moment. If that doesn’t improve in the next year or so, she’s for sale to someone who only wants to ring-ride or show. I like to go exploring on my horses, go camping, day-long trail rides with a lunch break… and she doesn’t seem to enjoy that very much.

[2bayboys]

@meupatdoes

It is not.

If you want to find a long term retirement home for a horse, you have to give the horse up while it can still be useful in a lesson program or with somebody else, with a hefty no sale clause and eyes on the ground.

I just sent my 15 year old OTTB to a new home at an eventing/dressage program with lots of working students and kids for exactly this reason. I wanted him to have a good home but not be on my tab for 10-15 more years ($150-200k). There is a hefty no sale clause with $8k liquidated damages automatically triggered if they ever can’t produce the horse on their property within their care custody and control, I sent him on “permanent free lease” and retained ownership, I am still sending his smartpak every month, friended on FB, and have eyes on the ground in the area also looking out for him. I took $0 for him, sent him UTD everything from shots to teeth to sheath, even included his two smartpak blankets with that ten year guaranty and said call me if a blanket rips, these are guaranteed. When it eventually comes time to make the EOL decision for him, I will be involved in the conversation and if it’s the kind that can be scheduled a week in advance I will travel several hundred miles to be there.

He was going GREAT when he left and I cried and cried as the trailer pulled out of the driveway. I would have loved to have several more seasons with him. But he needed to be going great and have years and years left in him to pay for his own retirement.

The key to giving a horse a good ending is usually giving them up before YOU are ready. People who wait til their horse is no longer ridable to find their horse a companion home are, imo, years late.

I think this is really important and a very practical way to look at horse-keeping. However, I’m sure there are those who are truly offended by the idea that a horse might be expected to “pay” for its own retirement.

[endlessclimb]

Not offended here. My Old Man eats me out of house and home, and after him I will NEVER retire one like I have him, unless I have my own land to do it on.

Thousands, and thousands, and thousands of dollars has been spent on him.

I don’t wish him ill, I love him to pieces, and he will be spared no (reasonable) expense - but I can also recognize what he’s doing to me financially.

[PaddockWood]

@Rackonteur

Could a therapeutic horse facility be economically reasonable? Not a “certified” specialist place necessarily, just a well-run boarding and/or lesson barn?

What you say is really thought provoking. Like a muse coming rolling over the land like in Elizabeth Gilberts BIG MAGIC. Get me dreaming!

I imagine if you had a couple really nice horses to ride - mostly safe and low key . And you combined trail riding and maybe an easy obstacle course because that could really fun. A wee bit of arena work to teach the fundamentals of good riding. Imagine horses giving lessons that instead of going in circles only, you were out and about having fun? They’d be game and easier to ride.

And you offered life coaching - talking while you’re out on the trail. Women/girls who want to ride but don’t want/can’t afford the whole expense. The person providing it all has A LOT of expense. But, it could really be cut down with INCOME IN for riding and talk therapy? Right?

For a person who was going to have two riding horses anyways and the farm maybe you could generate $500/mo. Maybe even $1k? You charged $50 a ride. You have your second horse that needs ridden 5 days a week to stay fit and help prevent EMS, right? Split up between 5-7 people.

I love thoughts like these. You could help women/teenage girls gain more self confidence while they consider navigating life. It sounds very rewarding. Ah, but those rose colored glasses get in my way.
There would be challenges of course.

BUT, how can we make having access to the incredible gift of horses. I think this could be one way.

[Scribbler]

@sami-joe

Right. I didn’t want to get into the weeds of the advent of the two-worker family.

The early definition of middle class appeals to me precisely because women working outside the home has failed to reduce our responsibilities in the home, and, as you mention, has not lived up to its family budget-doubling potential. I’d love to think that appliances and take-out line items in family budgets have made up for the fact that if it takes two people to reach the Pew definition of middle class. Since we still have to go to court to ensure equal pay, I’m willing to bet it is the rare woman whose pay is comparable to men’s, and that doesn’t count women’s unpaid labor. Lots of us have been convinced we’re middle class, even upper middle class, when by far most of the US is working class, especially when compared to other countries with similar financial resources.

Assuring Americans that we’re middle class is handy for employers, since working class people famously unionize to improve their working conditions. Those of us who believe we’re middle class tend to hold ourselves responsible for any financial struggle, i.e. borrowed too much for school; took a job outside our field; married unwisely; interrupted our career for children; slipped on the ice and broke our wrist; or couldn’t quit our expensive anachronistic hobby, rather than systems that seem out of our control, wage theft, banking deregulation, regressive taxation, healthcare costs, etc.

(I promised up thread to make this point in a more political forum, so if this is out of order, please let me know and I’ll delete and start over.)

In my experience women and men doing the same job tend to be paid pretty much the same. However, men dominate at the higher levels of almost everything. And they pretty much own the hugely overcompensated fields of finance and tech. And historically male dominated trades pay way more than female dominated service industry jobs.

So on a system wide basis men outearn women. But a man and a woman in the same job are much more likely to earn the same. And I certainly know many couples where the woman makes more than the man.

[Bopper]

Everyone’s goals are different but the cost of rated shows vs non rated local shows can be a decision maker. I see the local circuits growing while rated/breed shows are not growing as much in my area.

I just got a text from someone lamenting that their upcoming rated show was lacking entries while the recent local show with similar classes had LOTS of entries. They could not understand how a few hundred dollars more for a show was off putting to some people.

Reality is that inflation is causing people to cut back and they may cut back on showing.

[FjordBCRF]

@Scribbler

But a man and a woman in the same job are much more likely to earn the same.

This has been my limited experience.

I dated a guy at my company (Company 3) for a stint. We met while we were working the same type of role in the same department but I had switched departments some time before we started dating. Accounting for a couple years of age difference, I made more than he did by a little bit. When I moved from company 1 to company 2, I got a very big increase in salary. When I went from 2 to 3, it was a little more of a hike. Had I not done that, I may not have made as much as he did.

I make a hair more than my partner as well. He is a programmer and is 7 years older than me, but has been with the same company all his career and not on a management track. I think making some career jumps or even internal company moves can either help catch women (men too) up or put them ahead. Ive had to be careful that doing that doesn’t offset my work life balance because Im not interested in high stress and regular extra hours type work.

At one point, I started asking my closer guy friends if they were open to talking about salaries and was surprised to find out I was in better shape than they were age wise in the same industry…in a couple cases me having less experience. I also have a boss that hugely advocates for fair salary, and when I joined the group Im in now, I saw nearly a 10% salary increase, and last year or the year before that got a 6% raise which also helped. She wasn’t happy with where my salary was coming in from my previous department and made a point to try and catch me up.

Until there is better salary transparency though, I think it’s a grab bag.

[Pico_Banana]

@FjordBCRF

Until there is better salary transparency though, I think it’s a grab bag.

This is why I am so happy to see more and more states enacting pay equity laws. Also, some states like CA and NY require job postings to put in the applicable salary range. And if the job is sufficiently remote, employers are including those ranges even though they are advertising outside of those states. So it’s a good way to keep track of what’s market.

But in most places you need to change companies to keep your salary really market, unless your company is one of the rare ones that actually adjusts its salaries on a regular basis to the market in order to retain talent.

[candyappy]

@Texarkana

I wish we didn’t put this pressure on ourselves. Even programs for kids like 4H and Pony Club put a lot of emphasis on the horse show part of riding.

This is what drives all sports/ activities for kids in the last few decades. If you plan right you can have your kids competing in everything from baseball to dance every night of the week. I don’t know if it is the parents trying to live through the accomplishments of their kids or ???

When I grew up it wasn’t this way. Kids did sports or competed in activities or horse shows but not anything remotely near like it is now. Most did a school sport or 2 or had something non school they liked.

Kids don’t get to enjoy anything but just go from one event to another. I think adults are doing the same thing and it has become the norm and nobody even realizes it?

[candyappy]

@seabreeze

That’s a good point, @rulex . It’s a good setup for hard keepers. My own horse is in a muzzle. I love the acreage, however, because it’s so good for the horses’ mind and body.

I keep mine at home and curse my pasture. So hard to manage 2 of my 3 that need muzzles but I see how happy they are out there and know that no matter how hard it is for me , it is best for them.

I am trying 24/7 on grass for the first time in years and doing no dry lotting time. Very management intensive but I can already see the attitude adjustment in my horses. I could never expect a boarding provider to do that ( and wouldn’t even ask them).