Advanced Saddle Fit: STAY AWAY!

[jn4jenny]

[QUOTE=Cheesetoast;7928108]
So according to mvp, Colleen may have had a legimate reason for the delay, but instead of disclosing this to the OP she chose to LIE TO HER AND STOPPED TAKING HER CALLS. Yes, I am yelling…

The fact that some here are attempting to excuse this behaviour, is as disturbing to me as the behaviour itself. Have I somehow crashed headfirst into an alternate universe where it is okay to lie to, and ignore customers, and expect to maintain a stellar reputation as a business…Oy vey![/QUOTE]

I hope you’re not talking about me. mvp, perhaps?

IMO, there’s a wide gulf between “excusing behavior” and “asking people to consider the wide and grave jump from ‘this woman delivers incredibly crappy customer service’ and ‘this woman is a liar and a fraud.’” The first one–crappy service and communication–is pretty much undeniable based on multiple testimonials in this thread. And may Colleen’s business sink or swim under the weight of that. But the evidence for Colleen being a liar or fraud is much more loosey-goosey.

For you, it’s clearly a foregone conclusion that Colleen is lying. For me, that evidence could swing both ways. It could swing toward “Colleen is a criminal who is pocketing money and lying to her customers.” If so, may the cops and credit-card companies uncover this and hold her accountable. If there are other customers out there with damning stories to tell, I hope they show up–or, more important, contact Obiwan so that they can pass their story onto the correct set of cops. That’s how whats-her-face at Danforth Fine Used Saddles finally got caught.

But there are other possible narratives besides “Colleen is lying.” What if Colleen tried to protect her customers and business by temporarily withholding deposits until she saw movement on earlier existing orders? What if Adam Ellis/Patrick Saddlery tried to protect their bottom lines by not doing additional saddle work for Colleen until she started communicating better and/or sending more money? Now add in a dose of Colleen sucking at communication with her suppliers and customers, which means she may have really thought that saddle was “next in line” for months on end, and her penchant for not staying in good touch with her customers. I’ve just described blazing incompetence, [edit], and a bad case of “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.” But I haven’t described a crime. I’ve described something that happens all the time in the wedding and special events industry, the home renovation industry, the custom high-end car industry, etc.

So I’m merely suggesting that we all slow the roll on “Colleen is a LIAR!!!” Not stop the roll, just slow it down and be precise about it.

[BEARCAT]

[QUOTE=jn4jenny;7928395]

For you, it’s clearly a foregone conclusion that Colleen is lying. For me, that evidence could swing both ways. It could swing toward “Colleen is a criminal who is pocketing money and lying to her customers.” If so, may the cops and credit-card companies uncover this and hold her accountable.[/QUOTE]

…which is what just happened…

[Obiwan]

[QUOTE=jn4jenny;7928395]
I hope you’re not talking about me. mvp, perhaps?

IMO, there’s a wide gulf between “excusing behavior” and “asking people to consider the wide and grave jump from ‘this woman delivers incredibly crappy customer service’ and ‘this woman is a liar and a fraud.’” The first one–crappy service and communication–is pretty much undeniable based on multiple testimonials in this thread. And may Colleen’s business sink or swim under the weight of that. But the evidence for Colleen being a liar or fraud is much more loosey-goosey.

For you, it’s clearly a foregone conclusion that Colleen is lying. For me, that evidence could swing both ways. It could swing toward “Colleen is a criminal who is pocketing money and lying to her customers.” If so, may the cops and credit-card companies uncover this and hold her accountable. If there are other customers out there with damning stories to tell, I hope they show up–or, more important, contact Obiwan so that they can pass their story onto the correct set of cops. That’s how whats-her-face at Danforth Fine Used Saddles finally got caught.

But there are other possible narratives besides “Colleen is lying.” What if Colleen tried to protect her customers and business by temporarily withholding deposits until she saw movement on earlier existing orders? What if Adam Ellis/Patrick Saddlery tried to protect their bottom lines by not doing additional saddle work for Colleen until she started communicating better and/or sending more money? Now add in a dose of Colleen sucking at communication with her suppliers and customers, which means she may have really thought that saddle was “next in line” for months on end, and her penchant for not staying in good touch with her customers. I’ve just described blazing incompetence, [edit], and a bad case of “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.” But I haven’t described a crime. I’ve described something that happens all the time in the wedding and special events industry, the home renovation industry, the custom high-end car industry, etc.

So I’m merely suggesting that we all slow the roll on “Colleen is a LIAR!!!” Not stop the roll, just slow it down and be precise about it.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know if she’s pocketing money, and I wouldn’t outright call her a criminal. Although the whole situation is very strange. Nothing about it was handled correctly, or what seems to be great deal of professionalism.

When I began leaving messages on her machine in the likes of ‘I’d like an update or refund, please call me back’ ; ‘I’m concerned in the lapse of communication and am willing to go to small claims court’ ; ‘If you don’t call me back in 24 hours I’m going to be calling the police’. Over a three week period building up to these exasperated attempts to get SOMEONE to contact me from her office.

What kind of nit-wit office, weird lack of communication business is going on there?! Someone was getting the messages because, lets face it, it’s 2014 and we all check our messages a lot, may not reply to them but we get them.

I’m not sure who was lying, someone along the line was. Colleen told me Adam was lying to her, but Adam says her account is in bad standings and that he was having trouble reaching her himself. That he has many saddles orders he wouldn’t touch from her, because of her.

She has yet to say anything all the redeeming, or that convinces me I was wrong. She has not addressed the problem what so ever of why Adam would state this.

My biggest problem is this: She has yet to say that orders from Adam Ellis are being filled and that her account is not on hold. The account wouldn’t be on hold simply because parts and trees of saddles aren’t in.

[enjoytheride]

I dont understand how “other businesses have poor communication so its ok if i do too.” Is an actual valid excuse.

[mp]

@Chall;7928278

Nope. It can be compared to other industries.
Building/renovating a house for example. Very comparable. Customer wants specialized, individual thing for this room, house, layout. Renovator/worker would like the easiest most standard layout.
Workers promise to show up but don’t. For. Months.
Many thousands more than for a saddle, is laid out before the work.
Lack of communication, promises made but not kept.
Eventually, with a long enough wait it gets done.

You could also work with a licensed, bonded contractor. Not perfect, but you’d at least have some indication that a bonding company thinks the contractor is a decent risk.

I’m with enjoytheride: No excuse for this kind of behavior in any field, IMO. It’s just poor business practice. Period.

I had a good experience with a custom saddlemaker. As the OP did with ASF, I checked him out and he had an excellent reputation. Fortunately for me, he delivered – I got my saddle on time and exactly as ordered, even though Hurricane Rita had blown off the back of his house.

[riopony]

I saw this thread before the company was named so I am only now am posting. I used Colleen to fit my horse 3 years ago. I live nearby, had good reviews. I bought a Black Country off her. She came out and fit it after I did a trial and again about a year ago. I have since learned saddle did not fit my horse that well so I don’t know if it is lack of knowledge or just difference in opinions. I just sold that saddle. I may have her cell number still somewhere. I must admit I didn’t read all posts in the thread because I’m at work so if you only have the office number let me know.

ETA: had time to read the whole thread… I guess you are set on the phone numbers! I will also state that when Colleen came out she did tell me that my horse was hard to fit (high withered TB) and that she was the only one that could do it. Now that I have seen this is the typical response I figured I would add. She did seem knowledgeable but having learned a little more from another fitter and saddle brand rep this saddle was not the thing for him (at the same time I know that every rep touts their own saddle). The BC I got from her was straight from her truck so I didn’t have the wait issue.

[jn4jenny]

[QUOTE=Obiwan;7928498]
I don’t know if she’s pocketing money, and I wouldn’t outright call her a criminal. Although the whole situation is very strange. Nothing about it was handled correctly, or what seems to be great deal of professionalism.[/QUOTE]

Oh, no question about the professionalism issue. At bare minimum, the whole thing is weird and sad. I’m glad you got your money back. Sadly, if you’d paid by check, you might have had no recourse besides waiting it out or pressing charges. So what have we learned, kids? That sometimes, it’s worth accepting the CC fees when putting down a deposit on the custom saddle. :yes:

While we’re talking about professionalism…I have always heard stellar things about Adam Ellis and Patrick Saddlery, even for high-dollar and high-stakes transactions. They both have outstanding reputations, and I hope they emerge from the whole thing unscathed. I would gladly own their products, especially if I were not very concerned about resale–although I suspect that will become less of a problem in the next few years. They are “on the rise” with American consumers, the way that Borne and Ideal were a few years ago, or the way that Frank Baines and Black Country were a few years before that, or that Bliss and Loxley by Bliss were last year.

For folks who have never seen an Adam Ellis, they are gorgeous, as seen here:

http://www.hastilowusa.com/second-hand-sales/close-contact-and-jump-saddles/adam-ellis.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxXE0aVDk2s

[Chall]

Oh, I agree it’s poor business practice, just saying that poor business practices exist everywhere (and sometimes in the reverse, as in not collecting outstanding bills from clients).

I lucked out with my two Crosby Equilibriums that fit my shark fin, narrow TB and my super wide Arab. Each saddle kind of molded to their respective horse anatomy.

[cloudyandcallie]

I could see defending the owner of Advanced Saddle Fit if one had had a great experience buying from her, or if someone knew she’d been held hostage without a cell phone for all those months, etc. But no excuse for not refunding the money asap. There are good reasons to have delays, but if there are, sellers should tell the purchasers and offer money back. And never try to blame someone else who is not responsible for the delay!

In my personal experience, I do a good bit of buying from a manufacturer of riding clothing which has a leather full seat. Once I ordered something on sale, and was told there was a backlog due to the leather not being up to snuff and being returned to the supplier. I waited, and after 3 months emailed the owner of the small business about my order, which was slightly less than $200 on sale. When the owner realized that my order had been overlooked when new leather had come in, she sent it immediately and offered, and I accepted, a bigger discount on my next order. That is the way to do business.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;7928611]
I could see defending the owner of Advanced Saddle Fit if one had had a great experience buying from her, or if someone knew she’d been held hostage without a cell phone for all those months, etc. But no excuse for not refunding the money asap. There are good reasons to have delays, but if there are, sellers should tell the purchasers and offer money back. And never try to blame someone else who is not responsible for the delay!

In my personal experience, I do a good bit of buying from a manufacturer of riding clothing which has a leather full seat. Once I ordered something on sale, and was told there was a backlog due to the leather not being up to snuff and being returned to the supplier. I waited, and after 3 months emailed the owner of the small business about my order, which was slightly less than $200 on sale. When the owner realized that my order had been overlooked when new leather had come in, she sent it immediately and offered, and I accepted, a bigger discount on my next order. That is the way to do business.[/QUOTE]

That is how to retain a customer and even get new ones when the positive feedback is passed along.

[cloudyandcallie]

Tropical Rider. They had a great Xmas sale this year, although I did resist as I have a lot of their toasties full seat.

[Coanteen]

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;7928611]
There are good reasons to have delays, but if there are, sellers should tell the purchasers and offer money back. And never try to blame someone else who is not responsible for the delay![/QUOTE]

Yup.

In its simplest sense, you could compare that to the customer - waitstaff - kitchen staff situation. Multiple levels more complex, but essentially, the waiter (saddle fitter) takes your order and puts it in with the kitchen (saddle maker), but has no power in how fast the kitchen will get out the food.

If the kitchen is behind but my waiter keeps me informed, refills the drinks, acts apologetic about the delay, all’s well as to my satisfaction with the waiter. But if waiter pretty much ignores me, there goes their tip - even though the delay wasn’t exactly their fault. They are my “rep” between myself and the kitchen.

[eventing78]

My question to Adams email is why did he still take orders after this. I just found out a friend ordered a saddle in September. Why would he still be taking orders from her. 2 months after yours. When yours should have been done when this new order was sent in.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=eventing78;7929110]
My question to Adams email is why did he still take orders after this. I just found out a friend ordered a saddle in September. Why would he still be taking orders from her. 2 months after yours. When yours should have been done when this new order was sent in.[/QUOTE]

Just guessing - if saddle-fitter is a long-time customer who has sent in many good orders over the years, he may be thinking that eventually she’ll come through. But - noticing that he’s not extending her credit. Pay for play. Interesting when two people supposedly have such a long and successful working relationship. Could it be he’s been to this rodeo before with this particular saddle fitter?

Only Adam Ellis could say.

Loved the AE saddle linked earlier!

[Ambitious_Kate]

I imagine he’ll fill the order if its paid for. He said the OP’s order was not paid for and he didn’t fill it.

The question hanging out here is why wasn’t the OP’s order paid for? Why wasn’t the money forwarded to the maker? He clearly said that’s why the order, and others like it, were not being filled.

So she’s sending in money now. Or, some of her orders she sent the money in.

[gumshoe]

When a retailer is established with a manufacturer/wholesaler, they also have an established purchase order process. For example, the retailer has a copy of the manufacturer’s (in this case) order form or her own purchase order form. The form is filled out, faxed and arrives at the manufacturer.

Been in this situation many times when I worked for a distributor/wholesaler. I would receive purchase orders from accounts that had receivables in excess of 60 days. I’d put them in my “to call” pile. I’d call, remind them that I can’t ship until the account is current.

Those purchase orders either got filled and shipped because the account paid up to date or they would sit in a pile until the account was up to date.

The relationship here is between the manufacturer and the retailer. The retailer’s customer is her problem, not the manufacturer’s. The manufacturer doesn’t even KNOW who the end user is.

[QUOTE=eventing78;7929110]
My question to Adams email is why did he still take orders after this. I just found out a friend ordered a saddle in September. Why would he still be taking orders from her. 2 months after yours. When yours should have been done when this new order was sent in.[/QUOTE]

[jn4jenny]

[QUOTE=eventing78;7929110]
My question to Adams email is why did he still take orders after this. I just found out a friend ordered a saddle in September. Why would he still be taking orders from her. 2 months after yours. When yours should have been done when this new order was sent in.[/QUOTE]

July to September = an ambitious turnaround time for a one-man saddle shop. Most shops like Adam Ellis or Patrick Saddlery quote you 8-12 weeks for delivery, and that’s assuming no massive backlog or sudden influx of orders, no “problem orders” that require extra attention or re-dos, etc. Also, it may have taken awhile for Adam Ellis to catch onto the problems. If Colleen has been a good customer in the past, he may have given her benefit of the doubt for a few weeks, and maybe even a month or two, before he suspended the account. Add in a backlog of orders and a few other factors, and one can see how your friend’s order might get caught in the crossfire.

Even if Adam suspended Colleen’s accounts weeks/months before your friend ordered, he may have had no way to communicate with Colleen’s customers. Not all saddler’s order forms ask for the customer’s contact info, and even on those that do, the fitter doesn’t always fill out the customer’s info.

[findeight]

How do we know Adam even got that friends order from Colleen?

Realky, all that is known is friend gave Colleen money. Until Adam confirms he has the order and the money? Can’t assume he even has the order let alone the money.

[NJRider]

See post #15

[QUOTE=findeight;7930623]
How do we know Adam even got that friends order from Colleen?

Realky, all that is known is friend gave Colleen money. Until Adam confirms he has the order and the money? Can’t assume he even has the order let alone the money.[/QUOTE]

[findeight]

[QUOTE=eventing78;7929110]
My question to Adams email is why did he still take orders after this. I just found out a friend ordered a saddle in September. Why would he still be taking orders from her. 2 months after yours. When yours should have been done when this new order was sent in.[/QUOTE]

I was was referring to this post, #209 quoted in the past directly above mine, 213 or so. Not obiwans order with 2k deposit Adam confirmed getting the order without any 2k. Should have quoted post 209. Actually don’t see this persons friend ordered from Colleen, my bad and too bad Adam is now getting doubts cast on his business.