Age-group equitation & Grand Prix riders?

[541hunter]

We have a Restricted Eq division in my area, which was designed for riders doing the Children’s. I forget if they allow the 3’3" juniors to do it too—I THINK the restriction is must not compete at 3’6" or above at the same horse show, but I’d have to double check.

It’s nice to have, as it’s a different sandbox. Some Children’s riders still do the open age group eq; some don’t. But it does mean smaller divisions for both.

But if you go to WEF and compete in an open age group eq division and blow your lead…doesn’t matter who else is competing. Good on Brett for getting on a young import and getting around.

[JenEM]

The Novice/Maiden/Limit stuff runs at HITS shows, not sure about WEF, but I assume so. I’m frankly too lazy to go dig through their prizelist.

I apologize for my inaccuracy on division height, I forgot age group went under Zone specs, I’ve seen it run at 3’6 just like the medals. Clearly that is not the case everywhere.

[Janet]

A bunch of y’all are misreading this. No one said the rules were broken. Questioning whether the rule is correct for the sport.

I didn’t see a single post that suggested you thought rules were broken.

Every post I saw understood that you were asking about changing the rules.

[Peggy]

It at least used to be common in swimming for kids to swim in the Olympics and for their HS team.

[Cannonball]

[QUOTE=222orchids;9020740]
A bunch of y’all are misreading this. No one said the rules were broken. Questioning whether the rule is correct for the sport.[/QUOTE]

Yes it is good for the sport and it is necessary for the sport. This sport is very different because it requires a capable rider and a capable horse. Allowing a more experienced rider on a less experienced horse in a 3’3" eq division seems completely appropriate and safe. In my opinion, this is no different than a new eq rider starting their eq career on a veteran of Maclay finals. Or a kid showing in children’s jumpers on a former grand prix level horse. Both scenarios are fairly common and appropriate.

[findeight]

Honestly, OP cited competing in GP and Children’s Ponies at the same show in support of a rule change? Really? That kind of sensationalism doesnt help the argument.

People do what some refer to as 'slumming", seeking out lesser competition in order to win and amass points or qualify for some Finals or other. To me that’s poor sportsmanship but if it’s within the rules? That’s on them, not going to waste my emotional energy on them. But WEF is not "lesser competition in any way, shape or form.

This was not “slumming”. It’s the biggest, most competitive and probably easily most expensive show in the country to attend. The best of the best are there, particularly in the Big Eq AND that 15-17 age group Eq. (As noted upthread, there is no "Open Eq and this level show). Kids are trying to tune up and qualify for Finals and Indoors and they are going to go in every class they are eligible for. You need to expect riding against the best of the best or seek a smaller sandbox. Ocala for one, Gulfport and Pensacola is also getting popular as a suitable alternative. No knock on these venues quality wise, they are very well run and competitive, just more realistic and a little to a whole lot less expensive.

Thinking the trainer here told the kids they very likely would be in over their heads at a WEF and need to appreciate the opportunity as a (very expensive) learning experience. But either kid or parent was nursing a pipe dream and couldn’t handle the truth. IMO facing a more experienced and skilled competitor is not graft or corruption.

Nothing to do with cross entry legalities but WEF is a huge marketplace. BN European and SA trainer/riders bring well started young horses to sell, US trainers import sale prospects directly to WEF to take advantage of the one stop marketing, show experience and on site vet availability. You have to expect to see these prospects any class they feel will be beneficial under a variety of qualified riders, including younger ones seeking saddle time to work their way up the ranks.

Im a small fish too. Could have gone to WEF, maybe gotten a pastel or two in the Adults one year. Passed the 10k tag, flew down without the horse and had a wonderful learning experience hacked a few, trail ride around the neighborhood, took a few lessons. I rode in the schooling ring with the BNT/Rs. Recommend that experience for most if you don’t want to face that level of competition.

[AllOverFarm]

I guess if it’s within the rules, there is nothing you can do about it. I notice all the time there is a 17 yr old boy that competes in the small/med green pony classes against little girls in show boys & jods… He also does the big eq, Jr hunters & jumpers. He should be embarrassed, if nothing else.

[longtimelurker]

[QUOTE=AllOverFarm;9021546]
I guess if it’s within the rules, there is nothing you can do about it. I notice all the time there is a 17 yr old boy that competes in the small/med green pony classes against little girls in show boys & jods… He also does the big eq, Jr hunters & jumpers. He should be embarrassed, if nothing else.[/QUOTE]

A lot of riders who do this are working students, showing whatever a trainer puts them on, which helps them get rides in the bigger classes, as well as in the pony stuff. If you think there’s something embarrassing about a rider working hard by riding whatever their trainer has for them, then that’s a shame.

[lys]

[QUOTE=AllOverFarm;9021546]
I guess if it’s within the rules, there is nothing you can do about it. I notice all the time there is a 17 yr old boy that competes in the small/med green pony classes against little girls in show boys & jods… He also does the big eq, Jr hunters & jumpers. He should be embarrassed, if nothing else.[/QUOTE]

eh, seems like there’s a fair number of older, more experienced kids who show ponies in the greens. people want a solid kid on their green ponies to show to the best of the pony’s abilities. i do think kids should probably stop showing ponies in the regulars once they’re doing big eq and jr hunters, but the occasional green pony doesn’t seem unsportsmanlike. and longtimelurker makes a good point, a lot of times this is catch riding for a working student or a kid who doesn’t have their own pony and they’re getting valuable ring time.

[poltroon]

I guess if it’s within the rules, there is nothing you can do about it. I notice all the time there is a 17 yr old boy that competes in the small/med green pony classes against little girls in show boys & jods… He also does the big eq, Jr hunters & jumpers. He should be embarrassed, if nothing else.

How do you think those ponies got to be solid citizens so that little kids in jods could show them safely, happily, and successfully?

I assure you, they’re (mostly) not born that way.

This is what the green classes are for - to get those ponies experience. To find out if they’ll be safe for kids in a big, chaotic atmosphere.

[lys]

[QUOTE=poltroon;9021572]
How do you think those ponies got to be solid citizens so that little kids in jods could show them safely, happily, and successfully?

I assure you, they’re not (all) born that way.

This is what the green classes are for - to get those ponies experience.[/QUOTE]

exactly.

[AllOverFarm]

Winning a blue ribbon against 10 yr old girls when your a 17 yr old boy… whether you’re a working student or not… it doesn’t seem like a something to brag about. And if I was looking for a pony for a young child I wouldn’t want to see it go around with a 17-year-old boy. It would make me think the pony must be super tricky.
Especially if a working student is working for a barn were younger kids are available to show green ponies.

[AllOverFarm]

Winning a blue ribbon against 10 yr old girls when your a 17 yr old boy… whether you’re a working student or not… it doesn’t seem like a something to brag about. And if I was looking for a pony for a young child I wouldn’t want to see it go around with a 17-year-old boy. It would make me think the pony must be super tricky.
Especially if a working student is working for a barn were younger kids are available to show green ponies.

[lys]

[QUOTE=AllOverFarm;9021576]
Winning a blue ribbon against 10 yr old girls when your a 17 yr old boy… whether you’re a working student or not… it doesn’t seem like a something to brag about. And if I was looking for a pony for a young child I wouldn’t want to see it go around with a 17-year-old boy. It would make me think the pony must be super tricky.
Especially if a working student is working for a barn were younger kids are available to show green ponies.[/QUOTE]

whether or not this kid is “bragging” about winning against 10 year olds, I don’t know. but this is not uncommon. there’s a reason the rules are designed so a kid of any age can show a pony in the greens.

[poltroon]

Totally fair to make your buying decisions include the assessment of who is showing the pony now and that rider’s ability with respect to your rider’s talents.

Totally unfair to shame a junior rider for doing the work to make these ponies up.

[findeight]

Can’t quote but somebody upthread commented GP riders should not ride in the Regular Ponies? Well, they can’t ride anything but a Large and, IIRC, meet min age requirements for real GPs and max age requirements for Regular Small and Medium Ponies.

These things are judged on the Pony, not the resume of the kid riding and it’s first and foremost a business for those Pros who breed and train them. It’s their livelihood, not a fun hobby. Nobody is going to pay a decent price for a Pony based on mediocre at best, unpinned rounds in the Greens under a less proficient little kid rider. They buy the one that pinned the highest their budget will allow.

May not like it but it is a business underneath the fun of a show.

[blueribbons]

Shame on OP for using an anonymous online forum to make a dig at a kid. I realize you didn’t name anyone OP, but you may as well have. Even worse that there isn’t actually anything illegal or against the rules with what the rider in question did. You easily could have asked if there should be cross entry restrictions or if special divisions should be reinstated instead of attacking a specific rider. I agree that there is some sportsmanship lacking here, but I don’t think the junior is the problem.

[Soaponarope]

I am by no means about to discuss any rider in particular so please pre-empt any pearl clutching now. I’m simply going to say that while it is perhaps not true that every working student “brags” about ribbons earned “slumming” in low divisions, most do. They do in person, on Instagram, and social media, and in turn get sponsorships and more rides for doing so. This is the way for example they become “brand ambassadors” (awful term). When Mary Babick described trainers acting as pimps, using the big eq to prostitute junior riders to sell horses she was discussing the extent to which the HJ sport was exploiting junior riders and running horses into the ground, turning a kid’s sport into a business. I think this discussion feeds into some of the issues she raised a while back. Like I said, one gets to used to it. But in no way is dropping down into divisions to sell horses or grab ribbons ethical even if it’s legal. Nor are these practices comparable to other sports because in HJ it’s about selling horses and has very little to do with anything else. I am not calling anyone out in particular, but I have noted in the past that those who benefit financially from dropping riders and horses down into divisions are the first to call anyone who objects to the ethics of that examples of “poor sportmanship.” I think Mary Babick’s strong language was a very good corrective to the latter.

[vxf111]

If you want a class to be restricted, lobby for that restriction. If it’s unrestricted, you just have to accept that people will show in it who YOU feel are slumming/ringing… they may feel otherwise. There’s no hard and fast line as to when someone is getting mileage/getting reps and slumming/ringing.

[Darkwave]

“But in no way is dropping down into divisions to sell horses or grab ribbons ethical even if it’s legal. Nor are these practices comparable to other sports because in HJ it’s about selling horses and has very little to do with anything else. I am not calling anyone out in particular, but I have noted in the past that those who benefit financially from dropping riders and horses down into divisions are the first to call anyone who objects to the ethics of that examples of “poor sportmanship.” I think Mary Babick’s strong language was a very good corrective to the latter.”

Thing is, I think some of us (myself included) don’t think of the age group equitation as “dropping down” - it’s just another division.