not to mention the fact that the process of becoming an r, then an R, S, etc. is EXPENSIVE !
The age rule is a travesty.
I showed under Anne Gribbons last year and had no idea she is up against the age limit.
Her comments were very insightful and worth the expense of all the fees I had to pay to show that weekend.
I’m sad that she won’t be able to continue at the FEI level.
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Sorry yes, that’s what I meant. A system which encourages judges to undertake and move through the promotion process. The current system is not encouraging at all.
Totally agree. I’ve audited two Anne Gribbons clinics in the past three years and she is sharp as a whip, thoughtful, kind to the horses and very honest. The best kind of critique you could hope for.
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I have apprenticed with Lilo, Gary, Linda, Jeanne, Axel, Natalie and worked with Hilda in the past year. All of them have so much more to contribute to the sport. The retirement age is ridiculous. Let them decide when the travel all over the world is enough for them. Sure, an eye test and health exam is a good idea, but not age.
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It is not just the cost – they don’t have enough programs. Currently the wait list to get into a “r” program is 4 years!!! This is for qualified people who have been accepted into training and are willing to travel anywhere in the country to get it!!. There are more than enough waiting to fill several programs, and USEF/USDF just can’t get their act together to offer enough programs. It has been that way for several years. That also means that when people do get to the top of the list, they are pretty much forced to take whatever they can get into - regardless of how far away or inconvenient the timing. I am all for people showing dedication in order to get credentials, but let them show dedication through hours of practice and learning, not by spending hundreds of dollars on plane tickets. Not a good way to encourage young people to take up the profession, and not good for the middle aged people who are on a tight timeline to get their “S” and “FEI” before they age out.
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Plus once you get accepted into FEI judging, you cannot compete or have students showing in those classes. Further restriction on income and why many actively showing judges choose not to persue until after their competitive career is over.
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And yet I know someone (who is qualified to do so!) who applied to run an “r” program and was turned down. USEF does not run the programs - individuals run the programs, and apply to USEF (USDF only has the L program, once it is r, R, and S, USEF is in charge). Anyone can apply to run such a program, but you have to demonstrate you are capable of SUCCESSFULLY run it - and that means organizational experience, budgeting experience, etc. AND you have to hold part of the program at a show that is large enough to fulfill the testing requirements of the program - which means you need permission from show management too.
I have people from the L program I ran a few years ago who are on that list too - and waiting and waiting and waiting - they ask me to apply to run an “r” - but I just don’t have TIME at this point in my life. BTW, after so many years, you must at least AUDIT the L Program again - which means even MORE money. It isn’t like there is an L program in every region every year - finding one can be a big deal…
And once you are accepted into the “r” program, you end up with more costs - there is no consideration of where you live and where the program is held - so if you are on the East Coast, and there is a program on the West Coast, and you are in the top 10 on the waiting list, that is it, your chance to go through “r”… With all those travel expenses. And when you finish the “r”, will you be HIRED to judge? No, no one hires “r” judges - so you end up begging to work for free so you can get enough judging hours on your card to apply for the “R”…
While we have a good educational system (for judges), it isn’t always practical. It requires a lot of money to complete the series of programs, a lot of time, and a fancy enough horse to get the required competition scores to qualify for the programs!
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Actually, it is now USDF in charge of judge training. That just switched over last year. It was talked about 6 months ago at USDF convention. So far, no info that I am aware of about WHEN there will actually be a program run by USDF. While USEF was in charge, the process for applying to run an “r” or “R” program was never well publicized, nor was it publicized that we NEED people to do so (never mind actually giving some encouragement, or support to those who might be considering). I am hoping this might change now that USDF is in charge, but so far it looks like more of the same with a different name.
Interesting discussion. I am impressed with the many reasoned responses and suggestions. Let me add a little historical background based on my own experience. I became a “r” judge in 1968, a FEI candidate (now 3*) in 1980 and a FEI Official (O) (now 5*) in 1988. At that time I was the only judge with the highest rating in all of North America, South America , and most of the Pacific region. (One judge in Japan.) There were about a dozen other judges all from Europe. As some of you pointed out, the sport has grown world wide and the number of the very senior judges has doubled. We here in the US went from one to four, Canada added two, and Mexico added one. The FEI has always been more interested in the developments in Europe with it’s many CDIs and an abundance of eager judges ready to be promoted.
Just in recent years did we here in the US add more CDIs which justified more FEI judges. Unfortunately our most senior judges are slowly “aging out” per FEI requirements. In order not to loose this much experience all in a short time, I would suggest to the FEI to drop the age limit for all FEI judges, restrict us from judging major championships as younger judges need that important experience, but allow us to officiate at the many smaller CDIs around the world where we can still contribute and at the same time mentor less experienced judges. All this certainly supported by medical tests and peer review.
I won’t hold my breath, so will continue with judging national shows, teaching the “L” program, doing clinics, and spreading the dressage word via commentary on streaming video.
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Really appreciate you weighing in, Axel. What is the process for making such recommendations to the FEI and how do changes to the program get made? Is it even remotely possible that he opinions of competitors, trainers and other judges can help shape policy and process?
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Interesting, there is NOTHING on USDF’s website about this. So, maybe NO ONE is offering judge’s training anymore:cool: I follow USDF news pretty closely, and haven’t seen this announced anywhere - the passing of the torch was done very quietly, and now it is even more secretive then it was when USEF was in charge? I know USEF always used USDF L faculty for the trainings, and the L program was really the BIG educational program - they others were more evaluative, with more practical experience requirements (judging at rated shows, apprentice judging, etc). Would be nice if USDF would make this more open.
I’ve scribed for “r” candidates before - and the whole educational process of the r and R programs are so hush-hush, no auditors, no outsiders allowed. Maybe that will change? But meanwhile, I’m super curious as to where to find out more info. Eventually, I may run one of these programs to get the bottleneck opened up (the list of people waiting to get into “r”).
Guessing it will still be similar to the USEF (and the USDF L) programs - USDF won’t run the program, they’ll rely on GMO volunteers…
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Well, this is pretty depressing. I’m in the middle of part 2 of the L program and was considering going for my r, but if there’s a 4 year waiting list I’ll be 63 at that time. Oh well!
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Oh, don’t get discouraged - we don’t know how many years it takes to get through the list - depends on how many “r” programs are held! I do have a few of “my” candidates on the list, and I know they’ve been there for a couple of years now… But who knows, maybe next week, they’ll get into a program;)
A local acquaintance (AZ) just got accepted to an r program and there was an announcement on the GMO Facebook page about it. She applied for and received a couple of scholarships. I think the program is in New England so the aid will really help defray her travel costs.
I don’t think she’s been out of the L program four years so I’m not sure that wait list is universal. It might depend on your region or how far you are willing to travel to participate? She is an adult amateur not a trainer and I don’t know whether that plays a part.
Anyway, as others have said I would not be too discouraged. Make your own inquiries and maybe lobby the organizations to hold more r and R programs and encourage S candidates to address this deficit. Recent L grade are the voices they should be listening to the most.
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Doesn’t depend on who you are or where you live. If you are on the wait list, you are taken “in order” - which is why you could be out West and end up going back East for the program. When your name comes up, you go. Or you pass up on your chance and go back on the wait list… And graduating (with distinction) from the L program doesn’t get you on the list - you have to actually apply. There are other requirements BESIDES graduating from the L with distinction - you have to meet all those requirements in your application.
And then someone has to be willing to organize a program - USDF/USEA doesn’t actually do the programs, they wait for GMO members to apply to do a program. So anyone who is a member of a GMO can (with their GMOs blessing) apply to run an “r” or “R”. You may or may not be approved. You have to present a budget, a show (that has a history of sufficient number of rides at the relevant levels, and with show manager permission), etc.
At this point, I can’t find anything on USDF’s website on the application process, but to get an idea, you can look at the L Program organizer application process.
The other thing to remember - you are limited to TEN candidates, so that makes the budget process a little challenging. With the L Program, you can actually make a profit, since Part 1 can have 30 candidates. With the “r” program, you are down to 10 candidates to cover ALL costs - including your costs as organizer (you may have to travel to get to the show, you need AV equipment, you probably need some volunteer support, and costs of faculty).
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Axel-IIRC you got most of your levels when things were not quite so difficult. Not that you are unqualified, but it was a lot easier to get your judges card back in the 70’s and 80’s.
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All of the reasons discussed: huge expense, time commitment, distance to travel, insufficient number of programs, are what have kept me from ever pursuing judging. I have judged schooling shows, 4H shows and unrated open shows for many, many years and ALWAYS get great feedback about my judging, comments, and scores. Not to mention that I absolutely love to judge.
But the obstacles have been too great. Now, I am 60, which means what? If I get my r, R, S I have to stop there? I don’t know if I would mind that, but the years and years it would take, not to mention the expense and loss of revenue…not worth it to me.
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Another hiccup in the advancement process: to advance from r to R, you need to judge something like 40 2nd level test 3s, from R to S it is 4th level 3. Those tests are often qualifying tests and the shows like to run them with more advanced judges (S to judge 4-3 for example). Getting that number of tests can be a problem in less populated regions.
I know I had to do a bit of volunteer judging for managers in exchange for being given the highest test of the level to judge.
You also must be that level judge for a certain number of years before being allowed to apply.
I received my r pretty quickly after getting my L. I then started accumulating my ‘numbers’ of tests and shows in order to apply for R.
I almost had my application for R in, but had to postpone the program because I was diagnosed with cancer and had no idea how chemo would affect me. Once you are approved, the clock begins to tick and you need to complete the program within a certain time frame or reapply. Once I felt able to apply, there was a 3 year wait before a program was run.
Then, as soon as I was able to, I applied for an S program. My Grand Prix scores were getting ready to expire, so I needed to do it or not do it. I knew I was never riding GP again - my horse was old and I was totally unfit.
Again, a delay for an S program. I would call the USEF - good news is you are at the top of the list, bad news you are the only one on the list. They upped the score requirements in the meantime, but luckily my scores were high enough. But the higher score requirements weeded out a few candidates.
Finally, when there were 7 on the list, we applied for an exemption for a program with less than 10 and were approved. Unfortunately, that meant that the costs were divided by 7 not 10.
If you are going to do the judging route, you really need to be singleminded about it - chip away at the requirements as soon as you can and get on the wait lists for programs. Life interrupted my journey and I am about 6 years behind.
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