Am I insane?? (Aka please tell me why and where you retired your horses)

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=Chief2;8111996]
I retire my own, so I am pretty familiar with the issues involved. I have a question: did you test for Cushings Disease? Because unless it is involved, things don’t seem to be adding up here to me.

I fed my draft a mix of Triple Crown Senior, Blue Seal Haystretcher, canola oil, and grass hay. TC senior weighs .8 pounds per quart/coffee can, so if that is the measure someone was using, and they fed 8 scoops a day, your horse was receiving 6 pounds of feed per day. I don’t remember the calorie count, but it is one of the highest calorie senior feeds on the market. That would mean that the remaining balance of the diet had to met in fiber.

For comparison, my 17 hand, 1500 pound draft ate 10.5-11 pounds of the TC/HS 50:50 mix per day during the coldest months. He also consumed one 45 pound bale of grass hay per day. He went into the winter a 5 or a 6, and came out of it a 5.5 or a 6. On field board, or field board/and stalled only in bad weather, unblanketed. He had no trouble getting into the hay.

If your horse really was fed 8 pounds of TC Senior, which would be 10 quarts per day, then there may have been a problem getting into the hay. If he got 6.4 pounds per day (8 quarts), then both problems probably contributed to the result. Or there is another underlying issue. Either way, I would try to try to make some changes before looking into retirement board. It can be expensive, and some places do not consider a 16 year old retirement material. Some of the good places charge a few thousand dollars up front before accepting the horse. Good luck with your horse.

ETA I use the TC/HS mix to lower my feed bills. You could probably do the same with TC/Alfalfa cubes, etc. TC Senior = $22 a bag Blue Seal Haystretcher = $14.95. You could up the weight of what you are feeding without breaking the bank. Oil = 2,000 calories per cup.[/QUOTE]

I concur with this^, 100%. OP’s horse is a little young to be having major-league dentition issues; that’s normally seen more between the ages of 22 and 26. It’s possible he’s been OVER-floated, seen that too! But my gut feeling here is the horse just isn’t getting enough private time to clean up the amount of feed he really needs.

My vet won’t even THINK of testing for Cushing’s unless the horse doesn’t shed; that’s the last thing she looks for in a case like this unless you’ve got a long-wiry-and-curly. And he’s pretty young for that, too.

Having eliminated teeth, worms, pushy neighbors, meds and supps he doesn’t like in the feed, I’d say it’s your basic Needs Groceries Problem–and perhaps a better blanket.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8112665]
My vet won’t even THINK of testing for Cushing’s unless the horse doesn’t shed; that’s the last thing she looks for in a case like this unless you’ve got a long-wiry-and-curly. And he’s pretty young for that, too…[/QUOTE]

Why on earth wouldn’t a vet test for Cushings? It’s one of the simplest and most useful tests that could be done on any horse that isn’t quite right. It only costs $80…too bad a vet wouldn’t consider it unless the coat is long, because it’s not always a symptom.

As for age, I’ve got a 15 year old pony that is absolutely crippled from living with untreated Cushings for most of his life (he’s treated now, but still struggles.) I’m not sure I think the OPs horse has Cushings, but if blood is being drawn, I’d definitely add that to the list.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=S1969;8112737]
Why on earth wouldn’t a vet test for Cushings? It’s one of the simplest and most useful tests that could be done on any horse that isn’t quite right. It only costs $80…too bad a vet wouldn’t consider it unless the coat is long, because it’s not always a symptom.

As for age, I’ve got a 15 year old pony that is absolutely crippled from living with untreated Cushings for most of his life (he’s treated now, but still struggles.) I’m not sure I think the OPs horse has Cushings, but if blood is being drawn, I’d definitely add that to the list.[/QUOTE]

Because nearly all the horses at my place don’t fit the profile; and the vets know VERY WELL which types, breeds, and presentations DO. Ponies, Morgans, far more common. In 22 years, I’ve had exactly ONE horse out of 155 on the place who legitimately had the disease and had to be managed on Pergolide.

Like Lyme, this disease (as per my vets) is very, VERY “overdiagnosed” because owners insist on big workups for things that are far, far more likely to be something else besides a pituitary tumor. The real Cushing’s should not be confused with horses who are insulin-resistant, PSSM, or just need adjustments to feeding.

[onthebit]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8112665]
I concur with this^, 100%. OP’s horse is a little young to be having major-league dentition issues; that’s normally seen more between the ages of 22 and 26. It’s possible he’s been OVER-floated, seen that too! But my gut feeling here is the horse just isn’t getting enough private time to clean up the amount of feed he really needs.

My vet won’t even THINK of testing for Cushing’s unless the horse doesn’t shed; that’s the last thing she looks for in a case like this unless you’ve got a long-wiry-and-curly. And he’s pretty young for that, too.

Having eliminated teeth, worms, pushy neighbors, meds and supps he doesn’t like in the feed, I’d say it’s your basic Needs Groceries Problem–and perhaps a better blanket.[/QUOTE]

I’m going to have to disagree with this part of your post LE. I also own a retirement farm, currently have 13 residents on pergolide, ALL with positive tests for PPID/Cushings. A couple of them DO NOT have the classic Cushings coat, shed beautifully, etc. Both of them had water consumption that was too high (and they were both pasture boarded so I figured this out just from being observant). Had them tested, both had a positive test. When I look at the residents currently being treated for PPID/Cushings (again, with a positive test) the breeds represented include various Warmbloods, thoroughbreds, Quarter Horses, an Arabian, and two Welsh ponies. I have found no “profile” in regards to breed or symptoms when it is comes to a positive test for PPID.

Edited to add that one of the 2 horses I mentioned above in regards to non-classic symptoms is a warmblood that is only 14 years old. He had a very positive test. I had him tested the first week he arrived at our farm from Florida as I watched him downing gallon after gallon after gallon of water.

Edited to add again that over consuming water is a classic symptom, however that was his ONLY symptom. No heavy coat, owner and BO said he always shed out perfectly, no cresty neck, odd fat deposits, not laminitic, blah, blah. Nor was he lame, he was only “retired” as his owner was going to grad school and didn’t have the time to ride but didn’t want to sell.

[Lady_Eboshi]

THIRTEEN HORSES ON PERGOLIDE? :eek: Lucky you . . . and I’m glad you’ve cornered the market. :winkgrin:

If there are THAT many honest-to-God pituitary tumors in horses under 25, we sure as shootin’ need to be finding out WHY. That would be a huge sign something is very, very OFF with how they’re being kept nowadays–and my first suspect would be soy-based feeds and feeds laced with soybean oil which are strong endocrine disruptors. Possibly also unintended consequences of some of the modern meds? Severe lack of the vitamins found in fresh grass? Anyway, pretty scary!

It’s possible I screen out the Cushing’s-likely because the first question I ask is whether a horse has ever had laminitis–if the answer is yes, it’s an automatic wave-off for most of them.

[Libby2563]

Seconding some other responses, I would caution against retiring your horse too far south. Heat and humidity tend to be harder on the old guys and more difficult from a management standpoint than cold. My friend has a retired-ish horse in his mid- to late-20s down in SC and he is already having heat stress issues in April.

[faybe]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8113232]
THIRTEEN HORSES ON PERGOLIDE? :eek: Lucky you . . . and I’m glad you’ve cornered the market. :winkgrin:

If there are THAT many honest-to-God pituitary tumors in horses under 25, we sure as shootin’ need to be finding out WHY. That would be a huge sign something is very, very OFF with how they’re being kept nowadays–and my first suspect would be soy-based feeds and feeds laced with soybean oil which are strong endocrine disruptors. Possibly also unintended consequences of some of the modern meds? Severe lack of the vitamins found in fresh grass? Anyway, pretty scary!

It’s possible I screen out the Cushing’s-likely because the first question I ask is whether a horse has ever had laminitis–if the answer is yes, it’s an automatic wave-off for most of them.[/QUOTE]

Lady Eboshi, onthebit owns and runs a retirement farm (the one mentioned in an earlier post)… so her population is a bit skewed ;).

OP, if you do decide to go the retirement route, I would give onthebit’s farm (Paradigm Farms in TN) an outstanding recommendation. I did my internship at the vet practice they use and visited several times; all the horses are extremely well cared for and receive terrific individual attention. The farm itself is beautiful and very well maintained, and onthebit and her husband are lovely.

[purplepelhampony]

Thanks again for all the info! I will definitely remember to check out Paradigm Farms if I decide that’s the route I want to go.

I checked with the vet yesterday and she had tested for Cushings - blood work was fine across the board. He’s been on the ulcer meds for a week now with no difference but honestly, I’m not sure what to expect there because he’s always ate happily, is shiny, no outward signs. He’s not being ridden right now because I don’t want him working and burning calories, but when in work he doesn’t show any ulcer signs there either. Hopefully we’ll start to see some weight gain! I guess I have a lot to think about before next winter.

[SMF11]

@purplepelhampony;8115344

Thanks again for all the info! I will definitely remember to check out Paradigm Farms if I decide that’s the route I want to go.

Not directed at the OP per se, but just remember that really good, long established retirement barns often have waiting lists (I believe Paradigm does, though of course I can’t speak for them). I myself don’t keep a waiting list, because it can be years before I get an opening and usually people interested in retiring horses want to retire them soon.

[toady123]

It sounds like you are trying to do right by him. If you do decide to send him further away, please make sure it’s a place where you, or someone you really trust can go check on him regularly. Way to many horror stories about horses being neglected after owner trusts someone and then disappears for a while to then return and find their horse a bone rack, gone, etc.

[onthebit]

[QUOTE=faybe;8114035]
Lady Eboshi, onthebit owns and runs a retirement farm (the one mentioned in an earlier post)… so her population is a bit skewed ;).

OP, if you do decide to go the retirement route, I would give onthebit’s farm (Paradigm Farms in TN) an outstanding recommendation. I did my internship at the vet practice they use and visited several times; all the horses are extremely well cared for and receive terrific individual attention. The farm itself is beautiful and very well maintained, and onthebit and her husband are lovely.[/QUOTE]

That is so nice of you faybe! Your ears must have been burning last week as I was getting an update on you from Dr. Nathaniel and Dr. Christine!

[onthebit]

[QUOTE=toady123;8115468]
It sounds like you are trying to do right by him. If you do decide to send him further away, please make sure it’s a place where you, or someone you really trust can go check on him regularly. Way to many horror stories about horses being neglected after owner trusts someone and then disappears for a while to then return and find their horse a bone rack, gone, etc.[/QUOTE]

I can’t speak for every boarding barn, but I have not personally ever boarded at a barn where someone who wasn’t a fellow boarder could come and stroll through the pastures or go in the barn and go in a stall with a horse that wasn’t theirs. In twenty years of boarding experience in more than one state I was never at a barn where anyone but another boarder could wander around the farm. I don’t know that I would want to board at a place where people who weren’t boarders were allowed to be running around the farm “checking” on horses.

I think we’ve all heard horror stories of horses being neglected somewhere but good lord, according to COTH if you can’t see your horse every day he will surely be starved, beaten and dead within a month or two.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=onthebit;8116070]
I can’t speak for every boarding barn, but I have not personally ever boarded at a barn where someone who wasn’t a fellow boarder could come and stroll through the pastures or go in the barn and go in a stall with a horse that wasn’t theirs. In twenty years of boarding experience in more than one state I was never at a barn where anyone but another boarder could wander around the farm. I don’t know that I would want to board at a place where people who weren’t boarders were allowed to be running around the farm “checking” on horses.

I think we’ve all heard horror stories of horses being neglected somewhere but good lord, according to COTH if you can’t see your horse every day he will surely be starved, beaten and dead within a month or two.[/QUOTE]

We’ve all heard and seen the stories, but usually in those cases there were some pretty unusual arrangements, like all the horses’ ownership signed over to the BO or some such thing.

By definition you should avoid any place that does not allow you an appointment to come visit your horse. Ditto your kid’s school or sports practices! Not allowing visitation rights to the person writing the check is absurd. I can see WHY they might ask you to give them notice, though, if your horse is grazing somewhere out on 400 acres of land with a herd. No, I would not allow people to “just go wandering” all over a place like that either–for safety and liability reasons ALONE.

But most retirement farms are not that big; between 5 and 20 horses is about average. Another option for you is to find a regular boarding stable that takes retirees as many do. He would still be on full care, albeit in a less expensive part of the country, and his weather exposure would be better controlled as would his feeding needs but you wouldn’t be paying for amenities like an indoor arena.

I’d like to emphasize that MOST retirement barns, like all other barns, WANT to do the best job possible and have all the horses looking as good as humanly possible, so they can STAY IN BUSINESS. I know COTH thrives on horror and drama, but realistically those stories are true anomalies. It’s hard to entice new clients when the ones you’ve got look like the “End of the Trail.” :rolleyes:
Most of us like to turn 'em out fat, slick, and loving human attention!

[toady123]

[QUOTE=onthebit;8116070]
I can’t speak for every boarding barn, but I have not personally ever boarded at a barn where someone who wasn’t a fellow boarder could come and stroll through the pastures or go in the barn and go in a stall with a horse that wasn’t theirs. In twenty years of boarding experience in more than one state I was never at a barn where anyone but another boarder could wander around the farm. I don’t know that I would want to board at a place where people who weren’t boarders were allowed to be running around the farm “checking” on horses.

I think we’ve all heard horror stories of horses being neglected somewhere but good lord, according to COTH if you can’t see your horse every day he will surely be starved, beaten and dead within a month or two.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think it needs to be daily. But in my opinion checking the horse periodically is important. I know people don’t and many make it just fine, but there are plenty of threads and horror stories where people cry that the person who they left their horse in the care of didn’t hold up their end of the bargain. In my opinion, if you don’t want that to happen, you need to check up on them.

As for a person, agree it should not be any Joe Blow of the street, but it should not be unreasonable to assign a single person who is permitted to check on the horse if you are unable to.

[purplepelhampony]

[QUOTE=onthebit;8116070]
I can’t speak for every boarding barn, but I have not personally ever boarded at a barn where someone who wasn’t a fellow boarder could come and stroll through the pastures or go in the barn and go in a stall with a horse that wasn’t theirs. In twenty years of boarding experience in more than one state I was never at a barn where anyone but another boarder could wander around the farm. I don’t know that I would want to board at a place where people who weren’t boarders were allowed to be running around the farm “checking” on horses.

I think we’ve all heard horror stories of horses being neglected somewhere but good lord, according to COTH if you can’t see your horse every day he will surely be starved, beaten and dead within a month or two.[/QUOTE]

I hadn’t thought of this and it’s an excellent point. I’m not sure I’d want random people walking around the property. It will definitely be something I keep in mind when looking at barns, if I decide to retire him far away. Perhaps facilities would be more into it if I bring a friend nearby when I look at the facility before I move my horse there and explain the situation? I could skip this possibly if the retirement barn was great about sending updates and including some photos.

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8116260] Another option for you is to find a regular boarding stable that takes retirees as many do. He would still be on full care, albeit in a less expensive part of the country, and his weather exposure would be better controlled as would his feeding needs but you wouldn’t be paying for amenities like an indoor arena.

I’d like to emphasize that MOST retirement barns, like all other barns, WANT to do the best job possible and have all the horses looking as good as humanly possible, so they can STAY IN BUSINESS. I know COTH thrives on horror and drama, but realistically those stories are true anomalies. It’s hard to entice new clients when the ones you’ve got look like the “End of the Trail.” :rolleyes:
Most of us like to turn 'em out fat, slick, and loving human attention![/QUOTE]

That’s another excellent point I hadn’t thought of! It might be best if I look at a “regular barn” for extra control. He does love human attention and does best with a “job”, even if that job is coming in for a quick grooming and a few cookies!

[spacytracy]

If he is able to do some light work, I would give him some. I know you don’t want to burn off all your hard work but some light exercises will be very beneficial to him, mentally and physically.

It’s like putting an old person in a home and ignoring them, some are fine but others deteriorate quickly because they’re not being stimulated.

[OveroHunter]

I “bought” my now 24 year old retiree from the people who retired her. She was my show horse from the time she was 11-14 and went through a few homes after I stopped leasing her and went to college. Luckily I managed to track her down not long after I graduated.

They retired her because their daughter wanted to show at a level the mare could no longer do. She was still completely sound, but not needed in the riding program.

When I got her I was so excited to start lightly riding her and maybe doing some walk trot lessons on her… She was still completely W/T sound physically, but mentally not so much :lol: She probably hadn’t been ridden in a year at that point and had decided riding just wasn’t her thing anymore!

I’ve had her back 2 years now and I’ve ridden her a grand total 3 times. I guess I just haven’t felt the need to be bucked off by a 17.1 hand, 24 year old, Hanoverian mare!

The rest of the time she chills in a 100 acre pasture with her best buddy - an even older 11 hand POA mare that can practically walk under her belly.