Yes!
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Yes, sure, there are these circumstances. You do not know me but I can tell you that I have been showing long enough to know when there are valid things going on and when exactly what I described is happening.
Someone who knows the course doesn’t say: “What’s the course?” as they are walking to the ring, for example. There are plenty of ways of finding information about what is happening in the other ring so one has an idea of when the trainer will be able to head over to one’s ring. I have watched too many riders sit and stare at their trainer as they walk across the show ground to our ring and wait until they come up to them and tell them to go warm up. It’s not rocket science to see what is going on.
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And from experience stewarding eventing warm up.
I have seen lower level warm-up rings with the riders of a certain trainer being unwilling to warm up at all without that trainer. Everyone else did the basics on their own. If they do warm up with a trainer, they tend to wait on the trainer to jump. And the trainer did show up on time or else they didn’t get paid their coaching fee.
( it is very annoying to have two or three riders walking around on the buckle, waiting on a trainer, when everyone else is actively riding on that same track.)
If a trainer couldn’t be there because of a conflict , the riders know this ahead of time because the trainer has already worked out their schedule for the day.
Every upper level warm-up ring I have seen has riders actively warming up. They wait on no one. Some do wait on the trainer to jump, but many don’t. The trainer does not typically get involved with their flatting. The riders who are newer to the level will have talked out their flatting plan with the trainer well ahead of time.
In UL the trainer is mostly there to see that horse and rider are jumping well and coach if they aren’t, that rider is not falling back into bad habits with nerves, give extra tips for an extra fresh horse, answer any last minute questions, and off you go to start-box.
That’s my experience.
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Yes but running is not a team sport. Riding is a team sport.
Are they riding horses that can’t do the course safely? Are the riders endangering themselves or their mount? If neither, then I fail to see the problem.
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It goes both ways, at least for the kids. As a kid (17) I was waiting on my trainer who was at the other ring with another client… with the other trainer at our barn. We waited. I warmed up on the flat. We kept waiting. Another trainer came over and told me they were both over at the hunter ring, why didn’t they split up? I said I had no idea. In truth they had drama recently about who could train who and were refusing to share riders.
I thought about going without her but I would have been yelled at for sure. That was explicitly not allowed. Finally she came. Then we had to jump (not allowed to do that without her either, also didn’t have anyone to set). Then she wanted me to tell her my plan, even though I had just watched an entire division do the course and was ready to go 30 minutes ago.
I was embarrassed, enough so I remember more than 10 years later. I left the barn shortly after that.
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re warming up without trainer
Many barns and especially training programs forbid jumping outside of a lesson or trainer supervision. Asking someone to warm up over fences on their own for the first time in a warmup ring at a show seems like a bit much. Generally you want to add one complicating factor at a time.
At my barn we are expected to show up with sufficient time before we ride, go to the rings we’ll be showing in, check the schedule and the courses, and report back. I generally take a photo of the courses once they’re posted. That way you can go over them looking from various vantage points around the ring or away from the ring and even ask your trainer questions.
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That is how I read those exhibitors who posted here in defense of holding up a horse show until their trainer got there. They felt they were spending so much money that they were entitled to an optimized round.
I think making a couple hundred people to wait on you to figure out how to jump around 8 jumps (which I know you have done before) is rude. Again, that’s just a whole lot of other people, your equals, to put behind your insistence on help for a relatively low-stakes proposition. After all, you still have to think and execute on course, no matter what your pro tells you before-hand.
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You know, there is another point being made here … it could be that many of these riders have never in their lives jumped without supervision. Is that the case?
I know some barns forbid jumping without a trainer for liability reasons. Those riders may not have an opportunity to jump except with their program.
Like everything else, how to warm-up at the show needs to be learned and schooled at home. Of course that doesn’t provide the show setting and the show nerves of horse & rider, but at least riders would know what they should be doing.
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The problem is that the pros somehow have not made their riders into thinking, training-capable riders. So when the horse offers a different ride on the flat in the crowded schooling ring than he did at home, the student hasn’t somehow acquired the tools needed to wrangle their own horse toward rideability.
Is this a legit problem or not? Does it belong to the pro or the student?
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It reminds me a bit of students who can only solve problems they have seen before but when presented with the same concepts but using different numbers or something else isn’t familiar, they flounder. They didn’t truly master the concept.
I know there are some who simply have bad show nerves (Trubandloki) and can’t afford to go to multiple higher rated shows until the anxieties are brought to heel. I am dismayed to read it is now almost an expectation that a student or amateur rider can’t be more independent for various reasons. I may have stated that a bit too broadly and if so, I apologize.
Anyway, it still sounds to me as though USEF is operating as though there is no other way for people to show, advance, have a rule structure (and even drug testing) and that is demonstrably false. Amateurs can flex their financial power and see if there are more attractive alternatives available.
I hope USEF is hurting enough to pay more than lip service to the people without near-limitless financial resources.
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I see we’ve moved on from amateur bill of rights to the issues of ring delays and trainer dependence.
I speak as someone who has been quite independent–kept my horses at home and managed them myself, etc. But I don’t understand the disdain for people who want someone on the ground to help set jumps, talk through course complications and provide feedback on performance at a competition. If you’re doing this sport at a high level, you want to warm up in a very particular way, optimized for your horse and your own ride. It is extremely difficult to do that without someone setting the jumps the way you need them. If you watch Olympians show, they have such people helping them too! And if you are doing this sport at a lower level and lack experience, it is also reasonable to want a little advice and support, just like athletes in nearly every other sport get from their coaches.
Yes, horse showing is very expensive and high stakes. Even if shows were less expensive than they currently are, that would still be true! By the time you’ve shipped a horse to the show and paid even minimal entry and show fees, you’re looking at a $$$ round. Why wouldn’t you want to maximize your chances of being successful?
I say none of this to defend trainers who are rude and hold up rings. Those people should do their best to manage their schedules to avoid such situations–and be appropriately polite and apologetic when conflicts arise. But there is nothing wrong with riders wanting or expecting their trainers to help them achieve the best performance possible.
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There is nothing wrong with riders wanting to have their trainers present, either in the warmup or at the ring. There is something wrong, though, with a system where adult riders feel that they cannot horse show without their trainers by their side (and when conflicts inevitably result in rings being held for tens of minutes on one trainer).
Ride times or enforced class cut off times would go a long way towards fixing this particular problem, IMO.
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If those riders want that optimized warm-up, then they need to manage their employees and make sure they aren’t holding up the show because they can’t get their trainer to show up.
No one said the desired help was a bad thing.
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I don’t think anyone here is seriously suggesting that people shouldn’t rely on/want a trainer to set jumps, talk about the course, provide confidence, and so on at a show. As I said, a couple of times now, these are all things I want at a show from my trainers.
I often show without a trainer. This is because I feel confident I can do it but also both of mine are usually off doing events instead of spending all fricking day long waiting at a H/J show with me. I never show alone, though! I have a friend to set jumps in the warm up, help me plan my jump-off, video, hold my horse as needed, and shout things at me that she knows would be said by our trainers. I would not suggest people should do everything by themselves or shouldn’t have a trainer!
Also, even if you are super-dependent on your trainer, there is still the ability to not have that dependency mean everyone else is doomed to suffer for it at a show. I’m not sure why that is an unreasonable expectation.
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Sorry! I was not trying to be snippy with you, but I see now it may seem that way. I completely understand your perspective, and have myself gone to plenty of show with no help or a friend when the need arose. And I do find disorganized trainers and long gate delays to be one of the more tiresome aspects of horse showing.
I was more responding to a number of posts upthread that suggested that there was something wrong with hunter/jumper riders for wanting their trainers to assist them in warmup for competition. And I wanted to note that not everyone has a volunteer helper without other responsibilities who can easily step into that role.
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Sheesh. I don’t know if you are talking to me but if you read what I said (not just in the above post but several times) I am not saying that people don’t or shouldn’t have a trainer. As I said above I LIKE to have a trainer at shows, it just isn’t always possible for me. I’d rather not show without one, in fact, but I am lucky because if I have to, I can. <— none of these words indicate other people shouldn’t have trainers or that I look down on them if they do. Again, to be very clear: I RIDE WITH A TRAINER AT SHOWS WHEN I CAN.
I don’t actually care how dependent or not people are on their trainers (as I said above). It’s their business. I care when that dependency means everyone else has to wait around for solvable reasons (i.e. because the trainer isn’t being efficient or organized). You can have a trainer with you every step of the way and still get in the ring in a timely fashion! It’s possible! If it isn’t happening because no one on that team thinks it’s a priority, then yes, I do care. As I already said. Several times.
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I have warmed my daughter, when she was a junior, up over fences for a class when the trainer was no where to be found or she was at another ring with a demanding A/A who insisted the trainer watch her flat class. My daughter has even gone in the show ring without her trainer present as the back gate was threatening to close the class. Trainer was pissed, but got over it as my daughter did well. Even today now that my daughter is an adult, she has warmed herself up. Other trainers shared the jump with her, or I warmed her up if I could be there. I prefer a trainer do it, but I will step up if needed. Once her trainer received a concussion at a show and could not return. Being confident in either warming yourself up or having a friend or parent help you is a blessing when things do not go as planned.
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Oh no, my effort to respond to @foursocks appears to have eaten my previous post. Sigh.
Perhaps it is just as well.
I will learn the new board eventually!
