Amateur friendly jumper lines, including TB?

[Texarkana]

Recent advanced level eventers with multiple crosses to Mr. P whom I didn’t post above:

https://www.pedigreequery.com/cant+make+bail

https://www.pedigreequery.com/unmarked+bills

https://www.pedigreequery.com/oakeshott

https://www.pedigreequery.com/ladron2

https://www.pedigreequery.com/brave+survivor

https://www.pedigreequery.com/charmed+victory2

This is in no way a comprehensive list, just a handful I could think of off the top of my head.

The “Mr. P is bad/unsound” argument has existed in racing and sport circles for decades. But in time, it has absolutely not proven to be true as he moves further back on the page. Not in racing, not in sport. There is zero reason to avoid a horse with Mr. P in its pedigree, especially since it’s highly unlikely to see him closer than the 3rd generation at this point.

[EventerAJ]

As a TB breeder for both race and sport, I can pontificate on this topic for hours. I have spent so many days at the sales for the past 13 years, studying pedigrees and the individuals in front of me, judging types for sport and determining where the pieces and parts come from. I see about a thousand TBs and their pedigrees a year-- and while I have no idea how most of them could be as sport horses, I try to evaluate them as such anyway. I’ve galloped many, started some under saddle, and chatted with many track friends about sires they love and who to stay away from.

I have been a believer in AP Indy since 2010. Every horse I’ve competed since then has been an AP Indy descendant. My eventing stallion is by Bernardini, and I have a bunch of his kids that are growing up to be excellent sport prospects. Two of them have won FEH Championships as yearlings, and last year’s was the second-placed colt. They are good enough movers to be competitive with the WBs, and really good jumpers too. Plus they have amazing minds: smart, kind, and really easy to start under saddle.

I shop for broodmares and create commercial race-bred matings with potential sport in the back of my mind. We have mares with sirelines (or grandsires) such as Pulpit, Pleasant Colony, Put It Back, Congaree, Tiznow, Kris S, Go For Gin… all of which I like to create an uphill type sport horse. We have used sires such as St Patrick’s Day (American Pharoah’s brother), Union Rags, Catalina Cruiser (by Union Rags), Mo Town (by Uncle Mo out of a Bernardini mare), Astern (by MDO), Enticed (by MDO), Dialed In (by Mineshaft/AP Indy), Flatter (by AP Indy), and Gunnevera (by Dialed In). All of which produce a nice racehorse, but also a sport type of horse I would like to ride in case the yearlings do not sell, or a horse I would gladly take back down the line when its running career is over.

[fivestrideline]

@EventerAJ I lurk on the yearly breeding threads and love seeing all your little ones! Your insight is invaluable.

To throw a wrench in the TB breeding talk, my chronically unsound gelding is AP Indy and Rubiano on the sire side, and Foolish Pleasure (way back) on the dam side. I’m leasing a little TB mare right now, and she’s small but dang near perfect in brain and build. She’s got a TON of Mr P and Raise a Native on both sides. Of the two, my gelding is better bred, and yet she’s the sound one .

He raced, she didn’t. I wonder how much more important that is for longevity.

[EventerAJ]

Soundness is difficult to connect with heritability in OTTBs. There likely is some component, due to structure/conformation, and perhaps soft tissue strength… But any horse can be injured with poor training, improper conditioning, too much racing, and/or bad footing at the track. There is a nutritional component as well, how they were raised. All those factors probably have more to do with soundness & longevity than the parents.

[Texarkana]

Echoing what @EventerAJ said, soundness is very difficult to predict. Are there genetic components? Absolutely. But it’s not as simple as looking at a pedigree and determining if a horse will be sound/unsound.

I don’t have anywhere near EventerAJ’s experience, but I also have worked for some of the largest racing stables in the country in addition to breeding and retraining/reselling. Some of my most unsound, useless horses had drool-worthy breeding and conformation. Some of my soundest horses looked like they were put together by committee. Evaluating the pedigree is only one piece of the puzzle; you have to evaluate the horse in front of you as well.

And I swear if I do nothing else in my lifetime, I will get people to stop making statements like “the problem with thoroughbreds today is all the Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector.” Do I think it’s ideal that they dominate 2/3 of sire lines? No. But they also aren’t the soundness killers that they are credited as… at least not these days when they are often out of the first 5 generations.

[va2txrider]

LOL - that’s my mare! I just had a mild heart attack and have to get my numbers down. Sad to let this bloodline go. I have someone local getting her who plans to race the foal and keep breeding, so it will be fun to follow them.

[Live_Wire]

In my experience, no. They’re generally in your pocket types. Now that’s not to say they aren’t athletic and forward, they can be, but they’re malleable and perfectly AA friendly pending they have a good skill set or are workign with a trainer. Good, big bone. They make lovely hunter/jumpers. It’s a real bonus if you can find something by Temple City. They do take some time to grow into themselves. They’re one of the few I like to see a little bit older with limited starts.

[Live_Wire]

Again, no one is saying to avoid Mr. P or Northern Dancer - I said avoid too much.

I know several of the horses you’ve listed personally. While I understand the point you’re trying to make, which is unnecessary because I didn’t cast a blanket over Mr. P or Northern Dancer saying they’re crap and you should run from them like the plague, OP doesn’t sound interested in eventing at the 3-5* levels - it doesn’t sound like she’s interested in the maintenance an UL event horse requires, either. FWIW, a lot of them historically pull several rails in Stadium.

You forgot Smart Gorky. He’s a good dude. He’s got Northern Dancer back there.

[endlessclimb]

I have an AP Indy mare - I would NOT say she is incredibly ammy friendly, though she is still young so might grow brains at some point.

She’s got a spook in her that your lower-to-average ammy would not be able to sit. I am not saying I’m a stellar rider, because she’s decked me a couple times with it in the course of a couple years. I’m sticky though, and since she’s mine I’m stuck with her.

https://www.pedigreequery.com/shayney+mahaney

[Jealoushe]

Anything Deputy Minister is an outstanding YES from me. Best work ethic on the planet.

I also love AP Indy like some other posters, my gelding was AP Indy and I’ve sold another and both were incredibly sweet, talented and loving horses who were easy to work with from day one of owning.

[fivestrideline]

All good points y’all have brought up! I’m well aware that good breeding does not necessarily equal soundness, but then again isn’t that part of the deal? In theory we’d be breeding horses for soundness and purpose. I do realize, of course, that the environment and care is a bigger factor - and that the TB by nature is bred to go fast at a young age. Hence why I was asking about ideas for sturdy lines that lean more sporthorse.

I’m a competent amateur, and while I don’t appreciate a dirty stop or spook, I like to think I can sit through most things. And more than that, I like to take my time with horses and bank their confidence - I like a brave horse but I’m happy to give them every chance to BE brave.

I think of ammy friendly in my case as generally not an ass, and smart enough to realize Rider Is Blind Today and roll to a stop, rather than jumping anything from anywhere and getting in a wreck. And I need something that is generally happy to tolerate some mistakes without getting offended or worried. Though I don’t mind being told to get my $#1t together, nicely

[endlessclimb]

Perhaps it’s just my mare, as each horse is their own individual.

She’s fine to jump, I took my time and I’m not sure she’s ever refused anything under saddle. It’s the rando spooking that’s her problem.

[beowulf]

Back in my track days my friends used to fight over who got to exercise or take care of the AP Indys. I mean direct AP Indy offspring. Dated knowledge here.

I don’t know if his temperament is as reliable in second, third, fourth generation – which is where you are most likely to see him now. But he was quintessentially an ammy-friendly stallion, and so was his sire (IMO). His son[s] Flatter and Congrats seem to have inherited the ‘uncomplicated’ characteristic, or at the very least consistently pass it on.

I’ll do a selfish plug for Say Florida Sandy but you won’t be able to find him through sons as far as I’ve been able to tell, which is a real shame because his offspring seem practically broke the moment they’re born.

Big Brown seems to have sensible and uncomplicated horses, just from those I’ve seen find second careers with amateur riders - some who were tackling their first OTTBs.

If you can find a Dixie Brass or Dixie Union horse, they are great jumpers. At this point I think all of his their kids are aged. That is the problem with sourcing jumpers or sport horses from racing - by the time there is a big enough pool of horses from a specific stallion to draw conclusions about the horse’s ability to sire talent, the stallion is usually aged and/or dead.

Lonhro, Ghostzapper and Mizzen Mast are three I correlate with good jumping and kind brains.

On the sport-horse side of TB world there is Innkeeper and Copy Cat Creek, but I’m not sure if either have much in the way of availability anymore. Saketini has already been mentioned. I really like one of his sons (Miso) and if he goes missing from the barn it is not my fault.

And of course… A Fine Romance.

I agree with others its silly to even mention Northern Dancer or Mr P as concerns at this point. The average dirt pedigree is saturated with both, usually 2-5x in the first two pages. You will have a hard time finding a horse without these names. I don’t understand, in particular, the finger pointing at Mr P. He was the least “stampy” stallion to exist and even when he’s linebred six times in a horse you don’t see him come out the way you would see Northern Dancer or Storm Cat come out in similar linebreeding scenarios. He just did not replicate himself.

There are tons of TB stallions that make brilliant jumpers, so the list would be really exhaustive. I’ll add that I think Deputy Minister is a proven source of talent, but I’m not confident he’s always ammy friendly. But that is not a detractor IMO - this is the case for many TB (and WB!) stallions, who are talented as all get out but may need tactful rides. Add in that some TBs retire with a lot of racing baggage that make them sensitive where if they were raised in a sport home, might not need as much tactful riding. It’s hard to quantify until you’ve seen many horses by the same stallion over and over again.

[endlessclimb]

I’ve liked every Kitten’s Joy I’ve worked with.

I’ve also liked all the Dance with Ravens I’ve worked with.

[Live_Wire]

@beowulf

The average dirt pedigree is saturated with both, usually 2-5x in the first two pages. You will have a hard time finding a horse without these names

Case and point. Line breeding was/is common practice in the Thoroughbred breeding industry. There’s a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. Becasue Mr. P and Northern Dancer had such successful breeding careers, it was became increasingly easier to incorporate their bloodlines into a breeding program. Some are well done, some were not. Careless breeding leads to more problems than just soundness. I’m not saying thats the case for everything that’s linebred, but it’s something to be mindful of. An easy way to try to avoid that is to avoid too much line breeding to either stallion. It’s not as common to see in the five line anymore, but I still think it’s something to be mindful of.

[Live_Wire]

Oh! I forgot about Dance With Ravens. I’ve never known one personally I don’t think, but any time I’ve seen one I’ve been impressed.

[greymatter]

I have a four year old OTTB by Cairo Prince and he’s the amateur dream horse! I would take a million more exactly like him. Exceptional mover (more hunter than eventer, but free and elastic), very athletic, and the BEST brain. I don’t think they come quieter unless they are missing a pulse Great work ethic and super eager to please. I’m in love with him. I’ve heard his sire line tends to produce brains.

[widge]

I have a 2016 Cairo Prince and agree! Excellent brain and personality. Mine is also a hunter.

[fivestrideline]

Y’all are tempting me to go hunt down a Cairo Prince baby…. I’ll take a hunter type any day - if it’s careful and cute we can go play jumpers too.

[greymatter]

Well if you happen to end up with one you are required to share pictures!! That is the rules