American Chasers--where do they come from?

[SteeleRdr]

Well there are definitely different types of breeding for your different 'chasers. Your successful hurdlers are going to be a bit quicker than your timber horses. Timber horses tend to be a bit slower, bigger stride, and keener jump.

The MD Hunt Cup is, in and of itself, a monster of its own. It’s not really much breeding, the horses have to have a great jump, and just not make mistakes! They usually aren’t the horses out there winning ALL the time, but they’re the careful ones.

Acertainsmile - that is a great article, just so happens I just found that the other day. Neil is great, and yes, they do a little breeding at Kinross. Neil’s background, as the article states, is in eventing. He definitely looks for a more sporthorse type pedigree, as do I. Neil also has a way with horses, and can take something that’s mediocre and make them a star (he’s had several that were VERY quirky: Sur La Tete and P.C. Plod).

I work for a trainer who has always preferred to breed his own. The horse we had win the maiden timber last week at Piedmont is a homebred out of his former huntsman’s horse. His ex-father-in-law actually breeds as well. Breeds for the track, but is always aiming for the races. He’s bred some nice horses, such at Lonestar Lester and Ironfist.

Drvm, it does seem to be a stupid rule. The “real” chasing countries don’t follow it, as France, Britain and Ireland all let part breds run. Wonder where the rule came from in the first place, since if Hunter’s Rest’s dad ran a part bred it can’t have been around for too many years?

Doesn’t Mede Cahaba–Mignon Smith–mostly breed for chasing? Does Kinross breed? Strawbridge?

You can run part-breds in point-to-points. Not a problem. They don’t check registries. It’s a different game at the hunt meets, as HR pointed out.

And to answer your question about the breeding, Kinross breeds for eventual 'chasers (they may run on the flat), as does Mede Cahaba, and Strawbridge.

Equibrit said:
Sunnyside Woodbine MD

Seriously? No offense, but where did you get that they breed/are known for breeding 'chasers??? I’m not aware of this at all, and I’m well acquainted with the owners.

As for the thing about hunting race horses. Yes, often times the horses will hunt in the off season (or to prep for the upcoming season), but there are known horses that just don’t take to it. And as HR said, they hunt, but it’s not just a plop in the middle of the field kinda deal (for the most part). Most hunt at the back or the front, or even go off in separate groups. The former timber champion Ironfist was a BEAR to hunt! Couldn’t hold one side of the horse if you tried! But he was a heckuva race horse, and could jump the moon.

Ok, so I think that’s it. I’m slightly tired, so hopefully most of that made sense. I’m off to the Orange County races in the morning, so I’ll try to check in before I head out and again when I get home.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

@SteeleRdr;3982250

You can run part-breds in point-to-points. Not a problem. They don’t check registries. It’s a different game at the hunt meets, as HR pointed out.

And why should it be any different with NSA sanctioned races? The likes of The Fellow, Lord Carmont, Amberleigh House, Hors la Loi, Al Capone, would have been ineligible to run in NSA races according to those rules as they are not registered TBs, but they are all millionaire earnings jump race horses who would run rings around anything in the NSA ranks.
Strange rule.

[Hilldale]

This would be a good question for a bloodstock agent who specializes in finding jumpers like Sean Clancy. I’m not sure farms start out breeding for chasing or if they find a line through trial and error. For example, Northern Baby was a desired steeplechase sire but that’s probably because he had successful jumpers and people started breeding to him in hopes of more successful jumpers. Right now, Dynaformer is hot for steeplechase. But with a $150,000 stud fee steeplechase owners are not flocking to him for breeding purposes, they are finding his track rejects and trying them as jumpers. I know of a Dynaformer who sold for $1 million as a yearling only to be swooped up by a steeplechase trainer for $50 grand last fall. Looking at a program you’ll find all kinds of breeding. Sky Classic, Pleasant Tap, Black Minnalouse, A.P. Indy, Eastern Echo, etc. Most were bred for the flat track but found their way to the jumpers.

[vineyridge]

I did ask Joe Clancy about steeplechase sires. Reason I asked is that I’m getting a mare who is a sireline granddaughter of Lear Fan on top by way of Fantastic Fellow (won over 1/2 million) and Perfect Parade on the bottom, with line breeding on the bottom to Roberto and also to Roberto’s dam line though Little Current.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/marcys+hope
She was a failure in the racing that she did do, although they gave her 56 starts in a very regional market. To me her lines scream turf stayer, which is not the kind of racing they do in Ohio.

To me this looks like a chasing pedigree. Am I right? If I did breed her, I’d like to breed for a sport horse/chaser.

[SteeleRdr]

What a hard knocking mare! If she’s still sound and has no blemishes after all those starts, I’d definitely breed her for a 'chasing baby.

What are you looking to spend on stud fee? Concern is VERY reasonably priced, and I like what he produces.

Also found this article, don’t know if you had seen it.

http://extension.umd.edu/publications/pdfs/fs711.pdf

[KBEquine]

VineyRidge, I’m sorry your in MS only because I’m in PA & would love to join you in the adventure of breeding your mare for the NSA . . . we have one stallion who was a sound, hard-knocking runner in the USA who never got blacktype, but whose family has some National Hunt horses in his pedigree. We backed off of buying a mare at auction a few years ago who fit him beautifully, on the theory that (1) there were no flat races long enough in the USA for what the two of them would produce and (2) while we’re where the NSA runs a lot of races, we haven’t gotten involved.

Yet.

He’s been bred very lightly but has a couple youngsters aiming to be eventers. Which is another reason I think . . . wonder what would have happened if someone GOOD at training over jumps had gotten hold of him way back in his prime . . .

[Hunter_s_Rest]

1. Mede Cahaba, Strawbridge, Kinross may breed chasers, but mainly they breed commercial flat horses and get some jumpers out of it.
2. The NSA rule came into play (JC rule) when Jonathan Sheppard’s stable ‘accidentally’ ran a ringer at a hunt meet - 2 identical bay horses - the halters got switched, the boys led up the wrong horse for hte maiden, it won, of course, and turned out to have been the allowance horse. Both horses were ruled off, I believe, trainer fined, etc. It was a big kufflefluff.
3. My dad’s halfbred was a pointer not an NSA horse. That rule is probably less than 10 years old, though.
4. Form = able to win a race. Any race, really. Usually flat horses run out of conditions and can’t be at the next level (allowance, better claimers etc) without dropping down in class and owners want out of the horse or (less often) a nicer place for their horse to go.
5. The best way NOT to get a good jumper is to breed for it. :=) The best ones just sort of pop up. An American steeplechaser is a type more than a line.

[vineyridge]

Here is something that is sadly out of date, but interesting.
http://www.steeplestakes.com/topsire.html

It agrees with the article Steele Rdr posted, but is more current.

Hunters Rest, why would Americans not breed for jump racing when the Europeans do? That statement is intriguing, and I wish you’d elaborate.

[SteeleRdr]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;3983877]

Hunters Rest, why would Americans not breed for jump racing when the Europeans do? That statement is intriguing, and I wish you’d elaborate.[/QUOTE]

Here’s the simple answer…there isn’t the market here. There aren’t NEARLY as many places to race as there are in England/Ireland/etc. There are also not nearly as many farms/trainers here as there.

If you haven’t read the book “A Fine Place to Daydream,” it’s a great look into the National Hunt race scene.

In the US, there is a LOT more money to be earned on the flat track than over fences.

(just a note: a list of sires I’m seeing more and more this year: Cozzene, Concern, Allen’s Prospect, E Dubai, and Broad Brush)

[vineyridge]

Now here is something that might get me shot. I know the Fouts have been doing big time chasing on a smaller scale for years. This year at the Carolina Cup they ran (and he won) in the first race over hurdles (Sport of Kings Maiden Hurdle) at 2 1/8 miles a colt who is not quite four–2005 model born on May 17th.

He had already had a bit of a flat career, but isn’t that excessively young for running over fences? From what I understand about British practices, National Hunt horses don’t even come in for breaking until they are four and spend several years in the training pipeline.

There was another 2005 model, but he turns four tomorrow. And another real four year old by one day.

This seems rather irresponsible in my thinking, and reminds me unhappily of the flat racing disposable mentality.

[SteeleRdr]

If you are referencing Northern Bay, it wasn’t his first start over hurdles, just his first start under rules over hurdles. He won a maiden race at Blue Ridge Point-to-Point a few weeks ago.

As for age, I wouldn’t be adverse to having a light campaign for a 4 y/o over hurdles. They actually have a 3 y/o championship series in VA (or used to), and the Neil Morris trained (Kinross owned) Segregation Lane was the champion.

There is already an age requirement for timber horses, it’s 3 and up, and many races specify 4 and up for hurdles.

One of the horses I work with now (as a timber horse) ran for the first time ever (flat OR jumping) over hurdles in the fall of his 4 y/o year. The trainer is a British trainer, and usually follows a more “British” protocol.

I’m not up on the protocol for National Hunt horses, that’d be a place for Equillibrium to chime in. I wouldn’t doubt that there were some 4 y/o’s running in the UK though…

Ok, again, hopefully that made sense, I’m tired from a weekend of racing, and then doing the non-fun work (my real work) tonight.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

In Europe a horse can’t race over hurdles (small fences, 3’9" and collapable) until they are in the autumn (fall) of their 3yo year.
Those that do start at 3yo are almost invariably recycled flat horses that have already been in training and for whatever reason weren’t deemed good enough for the flat (although good enough is relative, they could be good enough to win in class 6, 5, 4, or even 2 races, but someone might see a potential top class hurdler in there). Some of those horses can be quite well bred, a la Detroit City (a Kingmambo son), Istabraq (a Sadler’s Wells son), Celestial Halo (a Montjeu) etc etc.
However, a true NH bred horse more than likely won’t start till they are 4yo.

To race in Chases (big fences, 4’6"+ and stiff), they have to be 4yo. Many Chasers won’t start till they are 5yo though, and may get a few runs over hurdles first, or start out in Point to Points (race meets organised by Hunts, with amateur jockeys) and then graduate to “Bumpers” (flat races over 2miles carrying NH weights, 168lbs. In Ireland only amateur jockeys can ride in those, in GB they are now open to professional jocks).

All three of Ire, GB and Fra have well established NH breeding industries, esp Ireland and France. In Ireland probably 50% or more of the total TB foal crop is bred purely for NH racing, that’s about 5000 horses a year. In France if you include AQPS horses with TBs they are up in the thousands too.

The reason they can sustain such a large breeding industry and that you don’t see something similar in the states is as has been pointed out, they have a huge number of Jump races.
For example in 2007
Ireland — there were 1,439 jump races “under rules” (at proper racetracks) and probably another 1000 or so “between the flags” (point to points). 5,350 horses made starts over fences (not including point to points). There were twice as many NH horses in training than flat racers.
GB — There were 3,218 jump races. Add in about 1,500 or so more point to point races. 8,346 horse made starts over fences.
Fra – There were 2,197 jump races. There were probably a bucket load more races provincial meets. 3,901 horses made starts over fences.
All told that is about 14,000 horses racing over fences in 6,754 races under rules and even more racing in point to points.

Compare that to the USA, there were a whopping 172 NSA sanctioned races all year long. You could probably add in the same number again at Hunt meets, I’m not sure, maybe HR or Steelrider would know, but I doubt it’s a large number. There were 437 horses that made starts in NSA races.

It’s simply not a large enough pool to sustain a breeding industry, esp when you can buy flat horses, or even import.

[Hilldale]

Northern Bay is a really nice horse - and still a colt!! He ran in the fall in the ARCA flat at Gold Cup and finished 2nd? then ran in the Sport of Kings maiden hurdle as his first start over hurdles at Camden in the fall and finished 6th against much more experienced maidens. He’s by Sligo Bay a son of Sadlers Wells who I think stands in Florida out of a Caro line mare.

[Madeline]

Used to be you could get JC papers “for racing purposes only.” Is that no longer an option?

Found it:
3. RACING PERMIT

• A. The Jockey Club, in its discretion and for good cause, may issue a Racing Permit for any horse which has been genetically typed and parentage analyzed and whose dam qualified, but whose sire did not qualify. The Jockey Club may consider any other relevant factors in its determination and may require the owner and/or breeder to provide additional information which the The Jockey Club deems necessary. A horse issued a Racing Permit cannot be considered a Thoroughbred for breeding purposes and cannot be entered into [I]The American Stud Book[/I]. The term "Racing Permit" should always accompany the name of the horse in any trade journal or racetrack program. Any horse receiving a Racing Permit will never be entitled to receive a Certificate of Foal Registration.
• B. To apply for a Racing Permit, the owner must submit a written request to The Jockey Club.

[vineyridge]

Thanks, Madeline, for that.

Problem as I see it is that many very good European chasers come from Half Bred Female Families. Last year’s winner of the Grand National, Comply or Die, is from one of those Half Bred families or from a non-numbered Half Bred family. Many generations back in his tail female line there was a non-TB mare. In fact, it’s more likely that the non-TB blood will come in on the bottom than on the top in Europe.

[Hunter_s_Rest]

Home from my ski trip so I saw this thread is still going!
Steele r already answered VR’s most recent query.
Re: age of jumpers - no, 4 yo, or even mid year 3 yo, is not ‘too young’ to run - on the flat or over fences.
A horse will, err, ‘tell you’ if he’s not ready. Trust me. You can’t make a horse run. Or want to. The ones running at 3 and early 4 are mature and ready. That’s the modern thoroughbred - carefully selected for early maturation. That’s what makes it work. (see earlier ref’s to the 2 yo study.) I’vd got a barn full of horses that ran as early 2 yos and, hell, they’re 18, 19, 20, 12, 13 years old and sound and strong and happy.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

[QUOTE=Madeline;3984835]
Used to be you could get JC papers “for racing purposes only.” Is that no longer an option?

Found it:
3. RACING PERMIT

• A. The Jockey Club, in its discretion and for good cause, may issue a Racing Permit for any horse which has been genetically typed and [B]parentage analyzed and whose [U]dam[/U] qualified[/B], but whose sire did not qualify. The Jockey Club may consider any other relevant factors in its determination and may require the owner and/or breeder to provide additional information which the The Jockey Club deems necessary. A horse issued a Racing Permit cannot be considered a Thoroughbred for breeding purposes and cannot be entered into [I]The American Stud Book[/I]. The term "Racing Permit" should always accompany the name of the horse in any trade journal or racetrack program. Any horse receiving a Racing Permit will never be entitled to receive a Certificate of Foal Registration.
• B. To apply for a Racing Permit, the owner must submit a written request to The Jockey Club.

[/QUOTE]

To highlight what kind of a dumbass rule this is, an article from the Daily Racing Form, no less…

Mon Mome, French for “My Kid,” is a son of Passing Sale, a three-time group race winner on the flat in France and Italy. The winner of the 166th Grand National, he was bred in France by Alexandre Deschere and began his career on May 2, 2004, at Pontivy in Brittany in a 1 5/8-mile flat race for AQPS horses. AQPS is the French acronym for “other than Thoroughbred,” a stout-hearted, mostly Thoroughbred breed derived from non-Thoroughbred French-bred mares that has helped French-breds, whether AQPS or entirely Thoroughbred, take control of the British jumping world. AQPS horses are allowed to run in jump races in France and England, and the Cheltenham Gold Cup winner The Fellow was among the breed’s most notable runners.

Of course, the Fellow’s damline was TB, it was his sire that was AQPS, but most AQPS get their non-TB quotient from the bottom.

Add in Irish bred horses from non-GSB mares and you are excluding a lot of good horses.