American Morgan Horse Assoc. opposes Horse Protection Act?

[red_mares]

[QUOTE=Kaede;8888736]
I have a nice saddlebred gelding who’s tail was cut and is now awry. My trainer and I have been working with him since July to get him to move more like a sport horse. He is doing fine. I figure It will be another year before his head and neck are down and he doesn’t look wildly lateral at the canter. What is going to kill him in the dressage arena is not his tail, it’s his tongue.
When he gets his loose ring french link snaffle on, it pops out of his mouth and WAVES around in the air. Vet says its nerve damage from being tied… Other times he bares his teeth, I’m told its a habit from wearing a show bridle… Still its a bit off putting to see him working at the walk, waving his tongue around or moving into a trot baring his teeth… Will the proposed legislation do anything to prevent tongue tying or the “spiked” or “studded” nose band or the mule bit he wore?[/QUOTE]

You knew what you were buying when you bought the horse. To whine about what will get you pinned down in dressage after the fact seems a bit disingenuous to me. Presumably you saw the horse before buying it. The horse was not bred to be a sport horse; very few ASBs are, that means they are high headed.

You make it sound like EVERY horse whose tail was cut uses that equipment. Not so much. Some need it, most don’t. Very rarely does one see a caveson like the one you linked too. More common, but by no means on every horse, is a chain inside the caveson or rounded bumps.

A mule bit in soft hands is not a bad bit. Not every horse goes in a fat snaffle. The hardest mouth horse I’ve been on wore a nice fat snaffle, wrapped in Sealtex to boot - and the owner had to pull like hell to get through to him. It was ridiculous. A little more bit would have meant that she didn’t have to scream at him through the reins.

As to the vet saying the horse’s tongue has nerve damage…huh? That just sounds crazy.

[luvmyhackney]

Actually I had never used a caveson like that, I’ve ridden at Saddleseat barns since I was 4. Our trainer only used plain ones or a beaded one, loose. At my last barn we had a horse come in with a beaded caveson, but got him switched to a regular after playing around with his bits. A tongue sticking out is usually not caused by nerve damage but discomfort in my experience. I’ve retrained a few ASB’s and hackneys, please pm and I’ll give the things that worked best for me.

[Kaede]

Red mare I’m as happy as a pig in poo with my horse. No whining at all. What I was trying to point out that there is lots of territory not covered by this bill… Any of you all ever heard about the reasonable person standard?
Might stop your worry over fly spray…

Red Mares do you have a degree veterinary medicine? What do you charge for a PPE? Can you do one sight unseen? I had one done including X-rays on everything that could be X-rayed from many different angles and knew about the wry tail and the tongue waving. He will make a fine dressage horse. We aren’t headed for the Olympics or even national competition. If we can get to training level (complete with waving tongue and wry tail) I’ll be thrilled.
And while we are at it, can someone do something about the western pleasure people tying their horses’ head to their stirrup for hours before going into the show ring? Or the tiny hooves that the halter horses have? What about the scotch bottom shoes? Or throwing a pole at a jumpers legs to get them to carry them better? As I said lots of “stuff” this bill doesn’t cover.

[red_mares]

Kaede, whatever. You sound just like someone who bought an OTTB and then complains about what comes with them and how positively awful track people are.

I think you need to worry about you and not so much about everyone else. There is a HUGE difference between bad and different. There is also a pretty big difference between internet horror stories and what really happens. Your caveson is a perfect example.

Please tell me how Congress writing a bill can change the tiny QH hooves, that one is beyond me. If a law was passed to ban tiny halter horse hooves it would scare the crap out of me, even though I have no desire to raise a QH with tiny hooves.

[Kaede]

Lots of mud to be thrown around Red Mares. Just pointing that out… Just make sure none of it sticks to you…

[red_mares]

Still waiting to hear how Congress is going to change the size of QH hooves…

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=red mares;8889336]
Still waiting to hear how Congress is going to change the size of QH hooves…:)[/QUOTE]

The same way Congress can do any other Constitutional act.

They can mandate a set size, a size proportional to weight or height, or a size that is tied to phase of the moon in the month and year the horse was born.

They can enforce the mandate by making non-compliance a crime, a civil offense, or an administrative offense.

Penalty range can include prison time, fines, community service, or wearing a silly hat on alternate Tuesdays.

Or they can just set a standard to be used, let the USDA decide what the size ought to be, and then penalize those who fail to comply as above.

The power is there to do most of the above things; the will, however, is not.

Remember that the U.S. has the power to require you to have health insurance and if you’re too poor to have health insurance penalize you for your failure. In a place where that’s possible why do you doubt the ability to regulate foot size on QHs?

G.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Kaede;8888736]
I have a nice saddlebred gelding who’s tail was cut and is now awry. My trainer and I have been working with him since July to get him to move more like a sport horse. He is doing fine. I figure It will be another year before his head and neck are down and he doesn’t look wildly lateral at the canter. What is going to kill him in the dressage arena is not his tail, it’s his tongue.
When he gets his loose ring french link snaffle on, it pops out of his mouth and WAVES around in the air. Vet says its nerve damage from being tied… Other times he bares his teeth, I’m told its a habit from wearing a show bridle… Still its a bit off putting to see him working at the walk, waving his tongue around or moving into a trot baring his teeth… Will the proposed legislation do anything to prevent tongue tying or the “spiked” or “studded” nose band or the mule bit he wore?[/QUOTE]

Kaede- I have re-tooled dozens of show ASBs, and taught them to be dressage horses. What you are speaking of with the tongue is not that unusual. I doubt that he has nerve damage, although it is quite possible, if some moron tied his tongue wrong. It is a practice that is used on almost every ASB in the show world. They believe that if they don’t tie the tongue, the horse with get it over the bit, and that, of course, is trouble.

I don’t do any ground work (longe or long line) with a caveson. I use a KK French snaffle, of medium thickness. I have a gelding here right now who was hysterical to watch, at first. He stuck his tongue out of his mouth, and the look on his face was, “LOOK! I can do THIS with my tongue…and THIS…and THIS!” He has learned he can also keep it in his mouth, at this point.

In the show world, they have the idea that if a horse is tough in the bridle, you add more bit. In the dressage world, we know that using a correct half-halt, and asking a horse to come back with your leg, is how correct training is done. But for show horse people- that is another language. I know- I didn’t get it either until I was well out of saddle seat. Now, there are some SS trainers who use dressage. World renowned trainer Rob Byers is the best of these, IMHO.

Studded cavesons keep a horses mouth shut so those bits can do their work. It’s a lot going on! Two bits, a tongue tie, and a tight caveson.

Caveletti are your friend, when rebuilding. Ground work is your friend. If I can be of any help, please feel free to PM me.

[ASB_Stars]

By the way- just saw a letter from the Senate to USDA- dated 10.5.16, and posted 10.11.16, that instructs USDA that the Senate would like to see the regulations implemented as written. I am assuming it is real.

Buckle up, boys.

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=Kaede;8888736]
I have a nice saddlebred gelding who’s tail was cut and is now awry. My trainer and I have been working with him since July to get him to move more like a sport horse. He is doing fine. I figure It will be another year before his head and neck are down and he doesn’t look wildly lateral at the canter. What is going to kill him in the dressage arena is not his tail, it’s his tongue.
When he gets his loose ring french link snaffle on, it pops out of his mouth and WAVES around in the air. Vet says its nerve damage from being tied… Other times he bares his teeth, I’m told its a habit from wearing a show bridle… Still its a bit off putting to see him working at the walk, waving his tongue around or moving into a trot baring his teeth… Will the proposed legislation do anything to prevent tongue tying or the “spiked” or “studded” nose band or the mule bit he wore?[/QUOTE]

Three suggestions that might help your horse.

1. Have a licensed vet who specializes in dentistry do a thorough exam of his mouth.

2. Have the vet also evaluate the horse for TMJ disease.

3. wrap the bit you are using with one of the taffy type candies, Bit O’ Honey is great, Caramels, MaryJane, and Banana flavored Laffy Taffy all work. Just roll it in your hands into a thin snake, then wrap it around the bit.

This helps with the ‘post traumatic stress’ anxiety response to being bridled, and the horse keeps his tongue in his mouth while he sucks on the candy/bit. If you can use a sweet iron bit for awhile that may help also.

If you use snaps to attach the bit you can drop the bit periodically while you ride and add taffy. Do this when he has done something well, don’t reward him for wagging his tongue

[Amwrider]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8889413]
By the way- just saw a letter from the Senate to USDA- dated 10.5.16, and posted 10.11.16, that instructs USDA that the Senate would like to see the regulations implemented as written. I am assuming it is real.

Buckle up, boys.[/QUOTE]

Doesn’t this have to gp from the USDA after the comment period is over, to the President to sign, and then it goes for Congressional review. Then it becomes an official regulation?

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8889413]
By the way- just saw a letter from the Senate to USDA- dated 10.5.16, and posted 10.11.16, that instructs USDA that the Senate would like to see the regulations implemented as written. I am assuming it is real.

Buckle up, boys.[/QUOTE]

Is there a link to this letter? I would like to read it.

[Amwrider]

http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.humanesociety.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F10%2FSenate-USDA-Letter-HPA-Rule.pdf&h=iAQFYx65U

[Amwrider]

It appears that the senators that signed this letter have not realized that the HPA revisions are very different from the PAST act and they claim that several associations including the AHC support the legislation, however a great number of those associations including the AHC are NOT supporting the HPA changes.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8889430]
Doesn’t this have to gp from the USDA after the comment period is over, to the President to sign, and then it goes for Congressional review. Then it becomes an official regulation?[/QUOTE]

I’m reporting what I’ve seen. I am assuming it’s real. Of course, I am also assuming that the powers that be in the padded up world are lawyering up. Nothing like loading the attorneys coffers. :lol:

We’ll see what happens next. Just for the record, I haven’t posted my comment, yet. I thought I’d wait for the very end…

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8888939]
ASB Stars market is people looking for a possible Dressage horse, not a Jumper.
In Dressage, the tail would be a no go / no sale if visibly altered.

When you find $ profit in a horse with 6 months to a year of retraining, generally refeeding and hoof correction, in a Breed that does not have Sport classes within their breed shows, so everything is against Open competition, let me know how you do that

This is just an aside.

I am not in favor of having an anonymous show vet responsible to sign off on all leg washes, fly spray, etc. that might go on a horse at a show if I forget to bring ‘my note’. I can’t imagine how time consuming it would be for 10 horses in a barn, and all the barns at a show.

The USEF already has a forbidden substances list…

Not limiting the hoof length while removing the ability to use pads or bands seems like a recipe for damage to me.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm…Here there is an OTTB that has a very ‘reduced’ tail due to a mud knot fiasco, and several Apps who are extremely "tail challenged’ and they are all judged fairly.

Why would a saddlebred be scored lower because it has a wonky tail? The size, shape, color, etc of a horse’s tail is not supposed to count (unless it is wringing the tail excessively).

I read that ASBStars was retraining for ‘Sport’. To me that covers lots more than just Dressage.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=Kaede;8888736]
When he gets his loose ring french link snaffle on, it pops out of his mouth and WAVES around in the air. Vet says its nerve damage from being tied… Other times he bares his teeth, I’m told its a habit from wearing a show bridle… Still its a bit off putting to see him working at the walk, waving his tongue around or moving into a trot baring his teeth… [/QUOTE]

That’s a bit of a stretch. I had a ASB from a BNT who waved his tongue around. Trainer said “he never could keep it in his mouth and tying won’t help.” This horse learned to keep him tongue in by carrying a waterford snaffle all winter. He also liked a segunda mouthpiece where he could stuff his tongue up in the port to find room instead of sticking it out.

There are so many horses of all breeds and disciplines with this habit it is impossible to blame tongue ties on all of them. And it’s true. You cannot tie a tongue back into their mouths. The tie is to keep them from bunching their tongue back up under the bit and taking off with you. That is also why tongue ties are popular in race horses.

That being said, a lot of Saddlebred show horses are hurried into a double bridle without enough bridle work. Not the good ones of course. But plenty of them.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8889430]
Doesn’t this have to gp from the USDA after the comment period is over, to the President to sign, and then it goes for Congressional review. Then it becomes an official regulation?[/QUOTE]

I’d have to review the Administrative Procedures Act, but IIRC when a regulation is proposed it has to be published by the agency involved in D.C. in a specific manner, there is then a comment period, then the agency involved reviews the comments, adjusts the regulation as necessary, and then it’s signed and issued by the secretary of the department involved. Once that signature is given the regulation is in force according to it’s terms. It many not come into force immediately; there may be a “grace” period for regulated entities to come into compliance.

Anyone who opposes the regulation may sue to prevent it’s enforcement. The APA has venue rules, IIRC, on what District Courts or Circuit Courts have jurisdiction over various administrative actions. I don’t remember the specifics but I know they are there.

Executive Orders are different and have a different track for issuance and challenge, IIRC.

It’s not unusual for a Congressional committee, an individual Senator or Representative, or a group of Senators and/or Representatives to write to a department secretary and advocate for or against a regulation. These do not have the force of law, but if a person with substantial influence over a department’s budget or oversight writes a letter you can bet the farm it’s read and given serious consideration.

The same is true for letters or other input from entities affected by regulations. If the owner of a mom and pop coffee shop writes in about some coffee policy they will be read and maybe not much more. If the CEO of Starbucks writes in on the same policy they will get a LOT more attention. That’s the way the system works.

G.

[earsup]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8887893]
Definition of Substance:

Substance means any agent applied to a horse’s limbs while a horse is shown, exhibited, or offered for sale, or otherwise present on the grounds at any horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or auction. This definition also includes any agent applied to a horse’s limbs before or after a horse is shown, exhibited, or offered for sale, or otherwise present on the grounds at any horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or auction.

Application of Definition of Substance:

Prohibited actions, practices, devices, and substances.
(a) Specific prohibitions. No device, method, practice, or substance shall be used with respect to any horse at any horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or auction if such use causes or can reasonably be expected to cause such horse to be sore.

You have to read ALL of the relevant parts of the Rule.

G.[/QUOTE]

So, if linement, hoof packing, etc… is excluded from regulation since it can’t “reasonably be expected to cause such horse to be sore,” does that also mean that, since it “devices” preceeds the statement along with “substances” that action devices such as bell boots, chains, stretchies etc are also allowed??? These devices do not sore a horse.

Now, maybe someone who applies caustic substances to a horses legs use these things to increase the discomfort the caustic substance creates, but the devices alone aren’t capable of creating soreness…

Hmmm… seems like what is true for substances should be true for devices, but i don’t think that’s how these proposed regulations are intended to play out. What if someone decides that i could be hiding a soring agent under my hoof packing or in my poultice??? Maybe some bad TWH guy decides how to mix a caustic substance into his linement… then what happens?

Given the progression of these regulations and the support they seem to be gaining, I don’t feel comfortable that “they” won’t come after and regulate other practices out of existance too.

I remember that it wasn’t so long ago that most people in the “trotting” world would never imagine facing something like this.

I’m a show person, but also an eventer… given the injuries to horses and humans in the media, I get worried that “they” are coming after us next. Cross country, in my opinion, might be high are the “next target” list and it concerns me.

No doubt regulating that world would probably bring joy to alot of animal rights people once they were “informed” of the horrors these poor horses are subjected to–you know, being forced to jump into the water and over dangerous ditches and giant logs…

Heck, maybe those eventers put caustic substances in their poultices and scews in their hoof packing to make the horses jump higher. Sounds redicuous, right? Or does it?

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=earsup;8890515]
So, if linement, hoof packing, etc… is excluded from regulation since it can’t “reasonably be expected to cause such horse to be sore,” does that also mean that, since it “devices” preceeds the statement along with “substances” that action devices such as bell boots, chains, stretchies etc are also allowed??? These devices do not sore a horse.

Now, maybe someone who applies caustic substances to a horses legs use these things to increase the discomfort the caustic substance creates, but the devices alone aren’t capable of creating soreness…

Hmmm… seems like what is true for substances should be true for devices, but i don’t think that’s how these proposed regulations are intended to play out. What if someone decides that i could be hiding a soring agent under my hoof packing or in my poultice??? Maybe some bad TWH guy decides how to mix a caustic substance into his linement… then what happens?

Given the progression of these regulations and the support they seem to be gaining, I don’t feel comfortable that “they” won’t come after and regulate other practices out of existance too.

I remember that it wasn’t so long ago that most people in the “trotting” world would never imagine facing something like this.

I’m a show person, but also an eventer… given the injuries to horses and humans in the media, I get worried that “they” are coming after us next. Cross country, in my opinion, might be high are the “next target” list and it concerns me.

No doubt regulating that world would probably bring joy to alot of animal rights people once they were “informed” of the horrors these poor horses are subjected to–you know, being forced to jump into the water and over dangerous ditches and giant logs…

Heck, maybe those eventers put caustic substances in their poultices and scews in their hoof packing to make the horses jump higher. Sounds redicuous, right? Or does it?[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure I understand your point.

G.