I’m not afraid of anything. I just don’t like it when someone gives away certification that,…well, means zilch. And that will very likely mislead that soccer mom with the horse crazy daughter, by making her think that the certification actually means something. A piece of paper, however valuable/worthless, tends to add credibility to those who may not deserve it. She isn’t going to get a better instructor just because s/he is ARIA certified; just means that that instructor went and got a piece of paper - period. You said yourself that the organization disappointed you; why are you defending them so vehemently? I would think that anyone with the certification that doesn’t think much of the organization who gave it them, would be steering others away from it, rather than defending its validity. :winkgrin:
ESG – ARIA did not fit my needs as my situation unfolded. No apologies about that. And it certainly doesn’t make ARIA a “bad” thing at all. I AM supportive of the ideals presented by any valid certification program and shall defend those I have a belief in against those who trash-talk them out of sheer lack of knowledge and fear of researching for knowledge – what I consider to be a staunch fear of having to admit something to either themselves or the public. Others, perhaps, call it “prejudice.”
I do note a number of “instructors” list all the famous-name clinicians they’ve studied with, and then post pictures of themselves riding. I sometimes find this to be … confusing. Is that person displaying poor position/form despite those they’ve ridden with or because of the instruction they’ve received? Well, I do have to say I have yet to run into this type of situation with someone who is touting their certification with a valid certifying agency…only those who are NOT certified.
You’re obviously more fortunate in Indiana than we are in Texas (and in Florida, from ME 
); there is a plethora of certified instructors (and I won’t say from which entity) that I wouldn’t trust to teach an up-down lesson, much less a more advanced dressage lesson.
ARIA has evolved somewhat from what ESG describes. To be “certified” at the various levels requires a variety of tests both general information and specific information as regards the “specialty” disciplines you seek certification in.
Is it great - no. Is it what we have available - yes. Does my bank (no horsepeople there) or the IRS care what the more educated riders/trainers in the country think about the program - no.
My feeling is that in general, as compared to the other “trainers” in my part of the world, my training and experience are far superior. My students tend to feel the same way, however, my bank does not care how I feel, they want a piece of paper.
I was a working student for 2 years with Michelle Gibson, I ride FEI and have trained 2 of my own horses to PSG. Do students just entering the equine world (my bank, the IRS) have any idea what this means - sadly, no. Michelle could be smoe lady down the block who trail rides for all they know of our sport.
USDF certification is on my agenda, and I have started the process. Can my finances and schedule allow me to complete, in the next 3 months, the process - no.
So, what are my alternatives (or others in my situation)?
We all feel the same, that when looking for advanced instruction (meaning above the national average of Training level) ARIA certification is fairly meaningless. But in terms of the general population of riders, it does have its place.
Really, if you saw what passed for “training” where I live, you would understand my position on this issue. If you have ever touched a horse, it seems you can call yourself a trainer and get away with it (at least for the short term) here!
Here’s an example of a “competitor” of mine, locally - wealthy woman (Dr. husband) who has 2 kids and a couple of backyard horses. Buys an existing facility, hangs out her shingle. Teaches students to grip with knees, hang on reins, almost constantly has horses in draw reins - even in hands of young, inexperienced riders, does not ride herself, sends horses out every spring for a couple of months to another “trainer” (same philosophy) for tune up, students show on local “open” circuit. Success on local circuit, tries some Dressage schooling shows, kids not even getting in the 50’s… but well known and regarded where we live with about 15 regular students on the circuit.
Her theory and knowledge would fill a teaspoon, if that. Could she become certified - not too likely, even at the lowest level. It does take some thought (for which you need some experience and knowledge) and the testing would likely be far above her level of general knowledge, much less the specialized knowledge for discipline certification.
This is where I see a value - other than for financing.
Oh, do the specialties require face-to-face examination? That’s the point with which I have the biggest issue. “Correspondence course certification” may work with some job descriptions, but it cuts no ice with training horses or riders.
But in terms of the general population of riders, it does have its place.
Where, pray? 
Really, if you saw what passed for “training” where I live, you would understand my position on this issue. If you have ever touched a horse, it seems you can call yourself a trainer and get away with it (at least for the short term) here!
So your area is the same as every other place in the country that I’ve lived. ARIA isn’t addressing this problem, nor can it. Nor can any other certification entity. Because it’s that sort that won’t bother to try to get certified, because they know they won’t pass. The problem with ARIA, as it has been described here, is that you don’t need to know much more than this type of “trainer” to get certified. Just talk a good game, write a decent essay, and voilia` - you have a piece of paper that says you’re a certified instructor. Means bupkes.
Here’s an example of a “competitor” of mine, locally - wealthy woman (Dr. husband) who has 2 kids and a couple of backyard horses. Buys an existing facility, hangs out her shingle. Teaches students to grip with knees, hang on reins, almost constantly has horses in draw reins - even in hands of young, inexperienced riders, does not ride herself, sends horses out every spring for a couple of months to another “trainer” (same philosophy) for tune up, students show on local “open” circuit. Success on local circuit, tries some Dressage schooling shows, kids not even getting in the 50’s… but well known and regarded where we live with about 15 regular students on the circuit.
Her theory and knowledge would fill a teaspoon, if that. Could she become certified - not too likely, even at the lowest level. It does take some thought (for which you need some experience and knowledge) and the testing would likely be far above her level of general knowledge, much less the specialized knowledge for discipline certification.
This is where I see a value - other than for financing.
So, you want to differentiate yourself from this person by getting a virtually meaningless certification? Why bother? Other than the financing, of course? Why not let your expertise in instruction and training be exhibited by your students and horses? At the end of the day, that’s all that’s necessary. Again, except for financing.
Again, ESG, you have illustrated quite clearly that you are unfamiliar with ARIA’s program, espousing vociferously without background information. Why do you feel so threatened by a program of certification that you have no intention of going through? Or that you even avoid researching, chosing instead to sling false statements like they are somehow golden drops of truth?
Yes, there is face-time during the written testing where the core theory and knowlege is tested, as well as extemporatious teaching during that part of the process. This “face-time” does not occur in an arena with a horse, but that doesn’t make it any less valid than, say, a physician taking a written test at a desk rather than in a surgical suite with a patient cut open in front of him/her.
I have seen some really horrendous “teaching” in my lifetime. When I think of the truly scary people I have seen, I do not doubt that none of them would pass ARIA’s standards.
So, in terms of whether ARIA certification has value… yes, I think it does.
Perhaps it only certifies people at a minimal level of competency, but that is something. That is a start.
I think the certification is more basic than BHS or USDF, but… BHS is very hard to come by in this country,… and USDF is specialized (and, not to mention, extremely expensive).
As others have said, it may not be a helpful certification for a competent “basic” rider who is already about Training Level, and looking for help moving up.
But it can be very helpful for the soccer mom who is trying to keep her kid from learning from some of the absolute charletons I’ve seen.
When we think about dressage, we think of Training level as the “bottom” of the scale. And, while some riders get on a horse, and really start with dressage lessons, I’d venture to say that’s very few.
Most riders in this country start in their backyard, or at a local lesson barn (presumably hunter jumper). It is a sub-level of general riding experience that most people get before they choose to specialize in dressage or some other discipline. Let’s face it, how many non-riders even know what dressage is??? Precious few.
So, for the suburbanite soccer mom who’s looking for a riding school on the fly. I think ARIA is helpful. Having known some ARIA teachers, none (that I knew) were spectacular teacher who could train me to GP, but all were varying shades of “competent.”
ESG,
I must say that I really resent the snide tone in the remarks that you are making.
We have all agreed with you on a basic level that the certification is not much, but again, what alternatives are there?
In my state, the plan is to make some sort of certification mandatory in the not too distant future (the recent talk is 2010) - the alternatives being discussed in the state legislature are ARIA and CHA (Certified Horsemanship Association - which in my mind is FAR worse than ARIA), as they are both “established” programs and address a wide variety of disciplines, rather than being sport-specific.
I do think having some sort of certification now is a benefit to me, not in that it will really help me or my students out, but will help Ms. Soccer Mom to make some kind of decision about who Susie should take lessons from.
What we are discussing is a GRASS ROOTS kind of program. If you are any more advanced than that, it will not have meaning to you unless some dramatic improvements are made. As we have ALL said previously.
Yes, I do feel that (especially for local prospective clients) having a piece of paper shows that I have at least made an effort, unlike the charlatans in my area.
My show record, training and the results of my students do garner me the most clients, and I am not banking (except for the financing for the new barn and arena) on certification to do the work for me.
I think it’s very funny that there was a recent article in the USEF mag about the hunter/jumpers getting certified. They are seeing a need for certification in their sport. They recognize that the USDF and USEA currently have programs. GM also pointed out that in Sweden you have to be licensed to teach, period, end of story. He thinks that it should become that way in the U.S. If we have people of that caliber pushing for certification of instructors in this country, and we also have states already setting in motion laws where you have to be licensed to teach, it will be interesting to see what happens with all those instructors who have not been testing and getting certified when they have to. I’m guessing the ARICP program (if acceptable to the governing bodies) will become an avenue that some people will run to for certification.
ESG, which one will you run to for your certification if there is a law passed in TX requiring certification to teach? Would you run to europe for certification and hope that it’s accepted over here?
Seriously, I’m curious. It seems there is a movement afoot, and you will have to take some avenue. If you don’t agree with any of them you might want to help with the rules that will be instituted that identify who really is qualified to teach. I know all programs have flaws at this time, but what can be done to fix them? Where’s the helpful advice? And it would seem you are of a mind that there should be some way to identify the good apples from the bad, so why not some sort of certification program?
A couple of points as a ‘consumer’ of riding training, as someone ‘certified’ in a non-riding related field, and as an observer of flaky trends in the world.
We live in a credential-obsessed world.
Everywhere you look people have pieces of paper to ‘prove’ this, that or the next thing, so that individuals encountering them and interested in their services won’t actually have to think about whether the credentialed individual is any damn good at what they do.
Perhaps the most ridiculous examples are places where manicurists and hair-braiders must be occupationally licensed: it should be instantly obvious to anyone whether a hair braider can braid or a manicurist can trim nails and cuticles and file as needed. And if they can’t, there is no real harm done, customers just don’t go back and they tell their friends. (Of course the real reason for the licensure is to keep out competition by legal force, but that’s another story.)
I obtained professional certification in an area where I had worked for many years. To even sit for the exam, I needed to have years of experience doing what I had done. To prepare for it I needed to at least become aware of things that didn’t apply to my corner of the world but did apply to other folks in other industries. That last aspect was at least valuable in filling in a few blanks in my knowledge to make me a little more well-rounded. But it became clear to me that my experience, not my credential, was what counted to my employer or any future employer or client, and having the certification per se was pretty much useless. Nobody respected it and it never earned me a dime more. What’s more, keeping it up was an expensive proposition since it required a lot of seminars and courses and entailed an enormous amount of bureaucratic BS.
The last straw was when they told me that some qualifying courses I had taken could not count toward the continuing education requirement not because they weren’t satisfactorily completed or I had not learned whatever I was supposed to, but simply because I hadn’t recorded them fast enough with the certifying body. Even though if everything had been counted and duly recorded I would have fulfilled the renewal criteria, I decided to just let it go.
The fact that the two people from whom I’ve taken lessons as an adult student starting from scratch (“this is a horse”) happen to have held certification credentials had nothing whatever to do with my choice to take lessons with them. They each had taught before, people who took lessons with them were satisfied with the progress they made, from the outset each seemed focussed on safety, I knew them fairly well at the time I started with each, they were very interactive, and apart from the obvious fact each could ride well, people I knew who were far more expert than I felt they were competent to teach me whatever I needed to know. I didn’t learn until long afterward that each had some third-party credential, and it made no difference to me once I did.
So the quality and criteria for some credential and certifying body are pretty much incidental. No doubt some are more rigorous than others, but who really cares?
Why put trust in some credential when as a consumer you have eyes and mind, when you can ask questions and get opinions from people who have observed the individual, certified or not, in action?
Will the credential bail you out if you get into trouble by relying on it? Nope.
Will the certifying body jump in and pay the bills (or whatever) to correct some bad event? Nope.
Best I can tell is that the credentialing organizations provide an educational service to those they certify by ensuring to some extent, more or less, that they have been exposed to (and presumably learned something from) a body of relevant knowledge.
It sounds as if ARIA provides a business context for its instructors, so people who know nothing about riding as a business can get themselves organized to have a better chance of successfully making a living at teaching. (Would that the veterinary schools provide something similar so that all vets going into private practice have some idea how to run a business.:yes:)
Seems to me that the educational and professional contact aspects are at least of some value to the people certified. Those are likely worth a hell of a lot more in the world than the certificate itself, which is just a piece of paper allowing would-be customers to get away with not thinking and asking questions.
If I were a parent who wanted to arrange riding lessons for my little kid, I wouldn’t rely on some paper from an organization of which I never had heard (much less some idiotic government bureaucracy). I’d ask around until I was satisfied.
And incidentally, what if George Morris’ folks had quibbled that Gordon Wright lacked official certification as a riding instructor?
I was a guinea rider for a USDF instructor certification workshop several years ago.
What I saw was an attempt to develop some minimum standards, policies, and procedures around basic concepts.
That’s what my experience with the BHS program was all about, too. The programs were not about guaranteeing great teachers, but that guaranteeing an understanding of a set of methodologies and some baselined skills.
Frankly, neither of the two people I most often take lessons from/with are certified and I’m not worried about it. One of them talks about getting the paperwork, primarily to help the younger instructors with whom she works gain legitimacy. But that’s a business issue. And I think Adamantane has it right about the whole credential-obsession.
I’d go with BHS. It’s the only one worth spit, and you can get certified right here in the good ole USA. No need to run to Europe.
Seriously, I’m curious. It seems there is a movement afoot, and you will have to take some avenue. If you don’t agree with any of them you might want to help with the rules that will be instituted that identify who really is qualified to teach. I know all programs have flaws at this time, but what can be done to fix them? Where’s the helpful advice? And it would seem you are of a mind that there should be some way to identify the good apples from the bad, so why not some sort of certification program?
I’ve already stated what I think to be the best way to find a competent instructor. Go to a horse show. Watch. Listen. Pick out two or three of the trainers whose horses/students you think go best. Take “audition” lessons with all of them, then choose. In short, as my mom says, use the sense God gave you to find the best trainer for you. 
But that’s just it - with the current standards, ARIA doesn’t help Ms. Soccer Mom find the best trainer. In fact, it might mislead Ms. Soccer Mom to believe that because someone is certified, they’re more qualified than someone who isn’t. Which, I think we all agree, is the case with current certification programs. They don’t prove $h!t, and they don’t represent anything. An MBA from Harvard is a great deal different than an MBA from Moo U, and most sensible people understand that. But an inept, yet certified instructor can and will cause far more harm than a competent, uncertified instructor. And again, I’ve seen far more inept certified instructors than competent ones. :eek: ARIA bestows certification on people they never see. Sorry, but that’s just wrong. :no:
And if truth sounds “snide” to you, sorry about that. This is a discussion. You’re not required to read/respond to/like all the comments made. I think ARIA is a waste of time. You don’t. Bully for you. Get your piece of paper and make your bankers happy. Carry on. 
Ding, ding, ding, ding - we have a winner! 
If I were a parent who wanted to arrange riding lessons for my little kid, I wouldn’t rely on some paper from an organization of which I never had heard (much less some idiotic government bureaucracy). I’d ask around until I was satisfied.
Exactly. Use the sense God gave you. If you’re so foolish that you discount what your eyes, ears, and good common sense tell you, you don’t deserve to be on the back of a horse to begin with.
And incidentally, what if George Morris’ folks had quibbled that Gordon Wright lacked official certification as a riding instructor?
There is that…:winkgrin:
WTF is “extemporatious teaching”? Are you trying to say “extemporaneous”? If so, how can you judge teaching if, as you say, "This “face-time” does not occur in an arena with a horse’? What, exactly, do you have to judge? Elaborate, please.
… but that doesn’t make it any less valid than, say, a physician taking a written test at a desk rather than in a surgical suite with a patient cut open in front of him/her.
Um, no. :rolleyes:
A physician with a patient cut open in front of him is not engaged in a give-and-take, extemporaneous situation. He knows pretty well what he’s going to find long before he ever makes the first incision, because he’s done radiographs, bloodwork, and other tests to determine what the problem is. The patient, other than being, has nothing to contribute here. When one is teaching, there is an exchange of information, a give and take, an imparting of knowledge via instruction to make an immediate change/improvement in the horse and rider. You’re comparing apples to oranges. You’re also making an even worse case for the validity of ARIA certification, in the process. Just thought I’d mention that. :winkgrin:
ESG – there are some days that I am so thrilled to realize I am who I am, and not who you are. Truly blessed, yessirree!
what would peoples view be on Aria as oppossed to college degree or certificate and or certificate from say one of those at home study courses like PCDI?
I happen to agree with Velvet that mandatory certification is only a matter of time. And I also think that it’s a good thing because it will help separate the wheat from the chaff. Any riding instructor worth his/her salt will welcome the certification process precisely because it will give potential students a way to look for qualified teachers.
You wouldn’t expect parent to send their kids to a school where the teachers had no credentials, would you? And just checking out different schools to see which teaching methods you happen to like isn’t going to solve the problem either. Certification is necessary to ensure adherence to a certain standard of instruction. We can all argue over whether or not a certain certificate means anything, in the end it means that the person that has it thought enough of her profession to try to legitimize it to some extent.
We’ve all learned the hard way which instructor is good and which one isn’t. Wouldn’t it be nice to know beforehand whether or not (s)he’s qualified to do her job?
Of Velvet’s observation I have no doubt. Unless we manage to put a stop to it before its too late.
I’m sure your intentions are of the best for all involved, Siegi, but if it’s such a good idea, why does it need the government to back it up with the threat of the sheriff and the courts and fines and jail?
Of course licensure does have two big advantages for those grandfathered in:
First, it keeps down annoying competition. Worked great for several other professions. (See below.) If I were insecure about my abilities or worried about competition, I might well be tempted to lobby for it.
Second, that it can allow the majority view to throttle those who disagree with their approach, and get rid of them by force. (Won’t it be fun to watch the public screaming matches between the NH people and the majority of traditional people in the State Licensing Board Hearing Rooms, once the majority discovers the possibility of putting an end to those NH heresies once and for all? It worked great for the AMA in getting rid of those pesky ‘quack’ homeopaths, chiropractors, midwives and the like. They almost pulled it off with the osteopaths, too, and actually managed to get away with it in some states. [Yes, of course I am being sarcastic but don’t want to train wreck the thread. No, I do not want the pro and anti NH factions to form up here. This is not the place, but it IS a good illustration of what can be expected, and we all know it.:yes:])
After reflecting on its nature, you don’t seriously want these outcomes, do you?
[quote=] And I also think that it’s a good thing because it will help separate the wheat from the chaff. Any riding instructor worth his/her salt will welcome the certification process precisely because it will give potential students a way to look for qualified teachers.
[/quote]
No it really won’t. See comment on the final quotation, below.
[quote=] You wouldn’t expect parent to send their kids to a school where the teachers had no credentials, would you? And just checking out different schools to see which teaching methods you happen to like isn’t going to solve the problem either. Certification is necessary to ensure adherence to a certain standard of instruction.
[/quote]
What choice do parents have unless they home school or send the kids away? Look at all those fine quality :no: public schools around the country we have with certification. But people with masters and doctoral degrees who (also:yes:) know what they are talking about in spades, cannot teach in primary or secondary schools unless they take all those fine courses on child development that qualify the present lot who are performing so very well whether they know their subject or not. (There are many excellent school teachers who, of course, also have obtained the credentials, by definition. They know who they are, and they also know the others of whom I speak. Everybody in every profession pretty well knows where they stand in the herd order and why, alphas, betas, epsilons and omegas.)
[quote=] We can all argue over whether or not a certain certificate means anything, in the end it means that the person that has it thought enough of her profession to try to legitimize it to some extent.
[/quote]
There is nothing whatever illegitimate about teaching riding or the profession, certificate or no certificate. It is no puffball endeavor and it does not need to be ‘legitimized.’ The only people who feel the need to prove something are those who are new and may remain a bit insecure while they have established themselves, and those who sense they may need a shield behind which to stand. Hooray for those who want to better their education. But it is naive to overstate the significance of any credential.
[quote=] We’ve all learned the hard way which instructor is good and which one isn’t. Wouldn’t it be nice to know beforehand whether or not (s)he’s qualified to do her job?
[/quote]
I personally know people with dual doctorates and walls of riding ribbons and trophies, people whose riding ability I could never equal in two full lifetimes, who can’t in my personal experience teach riding worth squat. And fine riders of notably lesser ability without a high school diploma who could. Been there, seen that, even if I didn’t ‘study’ with them.
Which of the incapable instructors you or I refer to would not have successfully obtained some kind of certificate from somebody?
So, if no parent walking in off the street without a magic decoder ring can tell which certificate means something and which does not, and if licensure is basically a political power play to exclude competition so as to lower supply and get rid of heretics (and the stray incompetent who quickly would be culled by the consumers anyway, credentials, licenses or not), then what is to be gained by this credentialing and licensure charade?
Make no mistake, I think that if someone wants to obtain a certificate for anything they have studied, that is fine. The process can be good for their professional development because it may make them more well rounded and highlight gaps, if any.
But certification (and certainly licensure) is no panacea for perceived problems. People who are good are good; people who are not, are not. (Recall that what works for some people does not work for everybody.)
From the standpoint of people who know nothing and want to learn or want their little kids to learn, at very best the presence or absence of a credential is equivocal. At worst it is a misleading and false reassurance that somebody is capable when they may not be.
We all arrived on earth with the ability to inquire, to reason and to evaluate. Nothing can substitute for that, or relieve human beings of the responsibility to do so. Any argument to the contrary is at best wishful thinking. At worst … All I can say is that you pays your money and you takes your choice. We see examples on every COTH forum every day, and if you think the horror story examples could have been avoided by pieces of paper, you’re a lot more trusting a soul than I ever will be.
And if grandma or grandpa wants to teach the grand- and neighbor kids to ride, would we send them off to jail?:eek:
Hmm, I really felt I got a lot out of the group lessons we did for dressage. Occasionally we did quadrilles/drill team work, but often it was patterns with cones and such. I don’t think I’d want to exclusively do group lessons, but the instructor was able to give all of us position help, juggle different levels, and it was a lot of fun.
I think that a lot of instructors try to be all things to all people, instead of focusing on their strengths. Also, the match of student, instructor, and horse is very important - even excellent teachers can struggle to help some students.
I have spent years and a lot of money on lessons, and barely made any progress. Some things would improve a bit, but I was a perpetual beginner, and couldn’t get my body to do what I wanted it to do. This past year, things really came together for me, and I’ve been able to make tangible changes. I’m not sure what made the difference for me - the teachers, the horse, or cross-training that helped me get better control of my body. I’ve had a lot of very qualified instructors whose other students consistantly improved faster than I did, no matter how hard I tried or how often I rode. I just figured I wasn’t talented at all, but didn’t want to just give up and stick to trailriding.
