American Thoroughbred not good enough?!

[Linny]

If I won the lottery I’d be interested in buying a couple of TB colts off of the track to train as sport stallion prospects. Essentially I’d want the same thing any upper level competitor would want (conformation, soundness, way of going) but with a bit extra. I’d want a great temperament as I think that is passed in the blood to a certain extent. The colts would have to be from sirelines and families that have produced success in some measure. The colts would have to show some real spark of talent, with the addition of brilliance. I’d send them to a top trainer or two and after a bit would sort out which horses should go to which disciplines, in order to give them the most chance to succeed.

I think that there is a great deal of potential there but it takes a ton of money, time and interest to bring it out/

[vineyridge]

The other thing that we always have to remember is that showjumping first and then eventing have been drastically changed to favor WB qualities. I was reading a book from the 1950s, and back then showjumping courses at the FEI level were longer; they were higher and wider and needed far more galloping to make the time. Even Madison Square Garden, a tight indoor arena, had far less technicality–few related distances, for example.

So what happened was that courses were designed for horses, then horses for courses. WB supremacy was not carved in stone; it was manufactured for them, as Count Toptani stated back in 1960 when the Germans had hardly begun their breeding strategies. He talked about the French designing their courses to favor their SFs.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8883629]
The other thing that we always have to remember is that showjumping first and then eventing have been drastically changed to favor WB qualities. I was reading a book from the 1950s, and back then showjumping courses at the FEI level were longer; they were higher and wider and needed far more galloping to make the time. Even Madison Square Garden, a tight indoor arena, had far less technicality–few related distances, for example.

So what happened was that courses were designed for horses, then horses for courses. WB supremacy was not carved in stone; it was manufactured for them, as Count Toptani stated back in 1960 when the Germans had hardly begun their breeding strategies. He talked about the French designing their courses to favor their SFs.[/QUOTE]

I won’t speak about eventing as it is not my universe. However this great conspiracy theory with regards to show jumping is just wrong. Not only that, it makes absolutely no sense! I have no idea what Count Toptani was talking about in 1960, but it was before modern sport began to evolve. We have been going on for 8 pages about how much TB has impacted the WB breeding in the last decades… Why on earth would that be if course were built to suite the WB? The WB of 30 years ago were all power and big stride. They were totaly suited for the huge less technical courses. Maybe it is right, when the courses allowed for more galloping, more TB were able to compete, but in no way were they dominating on the international stage. And I say that the course allowed more galloping as I do not believe in fact that time was an issue then. In fact, the pace required around the courses now are faster then they have ever been in the past 30 or 40 years, it is a fact every competitor is working with every week. Sport horse continously evolves, and horses are better every generation. Sport have to evoluate to maintain a good level of competition. When it became pointless to build the courses higher, they made it more technical, gradualy, and the horses needed to be more reactive, more elastic and generally more adaptable to be succesfull at those level. WB breeding evolved specifically in that sense. By the way, as mentionned before, TB were used massively in WB breeding at that point to add the blood and reactivness required for the new reality.

[Elles]

According to me the warmblood / TB cross can likely be used for eventing. The fillies can be used for jumping breeding and maybe even dressage breeding. But the warmblood and the TB lines being used must be of the best kind possible.
Not all TB’s are monstrosities and freaks from a riding horse point of view :-).
https://www.google.nl/#q=ridgmont+augustinus+ridgiduct
In Germany they have the Schaufenster Vollblut, display window to TB with regard to riding horse points.
https://www.google.nl/search?q=schaufenster+vollblut&biw=894&bih=246&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjf5Iqg8s_PAhVB5xoKHUv_CW0Q_AUIBigB

[Equilibrium]

On the topic of TB’s and part needs and dressage scores. My homebred won his 1* this year with 2 SJ fences in hand. The field included WFP so hardly a walkover. He has,finished nearly at the top after dressage in most of his comps this year. At the 6 yo championships he was tense in dressage for the first time all year and it cost him a top ten place. But he can and does produce dressage results. The damline of my TB FF produced an approved KWPN TB stallion. Most notably the damsire of 1.60 jumper Tinka’s Serenade. His name was African Drum. So I don’t think you can say they’re totally unknown. I keep getting asked if Abba’s first foal is dressage bred when they see photos of her. Another offspring won pure dressage comps here although not registered.

But I have a warmblood/TB cross I bred strictly for myself. Out of a French Deputy/Mt. Livermore mare. While I love her to bits she’s much harder work to have going properly. Downhill but a lovely mover. She would not be the type I would want to bred for sport. It would take a few generations to have a more sport type. I’m not worried because for me she’s just fine at the level I want to compete. That level is low. Be honest with yourself. Don’t make excuses. Some types are going to give you consistency and some won’t.

Bayhawk has been complimentary to me over the years. I think people get a little to emotional on the subject.

And I so wish the mighty Fred had frozen in Europe because I would have loved an F3 cross by him for my eventing program.

Terri

[Elles]

What is the breeding of Abba?

[Equilibrium]

She is Tadmus (Calvados/Concorde). Her mother is national hunt breeding: Broken Hearted/Carlingford Castle/ Deep Run. Abba’s daughter is by Vancouver (Heartbreaker/Larome) Vancouver is from the damline of Woklahoma.

Terri

[Elles]

I found a video. Nice!

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8882825]
Gumtree, sport horse breeders in Europe have access to volumes of information. It is less available here in the United States because of the lack of interest in the USEF towards breeding.[/QUOTE]

I have no doubt there is. My point was these “volumes” don’t seem to be easily accessible to the average potential breeder and or student of. American TB breeders don’t have to live/breed in Europe to have access to volumes of information on Euro TB families and or complete produce records of mares and their extended families going back hundreds of years.

The same can be said for just about every major TB breeding country in the world. Thoroughbreds make up a small percentage of the annual foal crops of all breeds. Correct me if I am wrong Germany alone breeds more WBs each year than the total American foal crop of TBs.

Granted before computers became as common as TVs in any house. Serious TB breeders had to maintain a pretty extensive library of reference books. The majority of which were for researching the distaff side. The annual stallion register covered that side well enough. Subscriptions to the various monthly industry trades domestic and international that gave/give detailed race/competition, detailed (dam) pedigree information, updated stallion statistics, breeder of record and if the horse was sold at auction the price.

Since computers all of the above can easily be found pretty much for free by anyone. Safe to say my library is considerably smaller.

So, are there links/webpages to be had for the “volumes of information”? Do the various Registries keep detailed performance records of not only the Stallions but IMO more importantly the dams? So a potential breeder can research what crosses have “worked” and theoretically should have a higher statistical chance of producing what the breeder is trying to accomplish. In other words being able to “use” other people’s money. Before spending their own on something that appears to be a “proven” failure. In competition for the breeder/owner or the market for those who breed commercially.

Doing a search of “Warmbloods for sale” the asking prices are pretty hefty. The sellers list the sires but give little to no details of the dams let alone the extended distaff family. How is one to know if the dam has been bred to the same stallion numerous times and none have made it to the “races”. Or if the odd one never got beyond “pony club schooling shows”.

Personally when I see a TB mare that has been bred to top sires year in and year out and none of them could out run a fat man. I will pass, there is little reason to think that I am going to be the “lucky one” that picked the correct lottery numbers.

The Chronicle’s weekly coverage gives competition results but no details of the horse’s pedigree. The way it is formatted is not easy to read. It is pretty much the same as when I first flipped through the pages more than 50 years ago.

In the August 15th issue it covers the USHJA International Hunter Derby Championship Roster. Of the 65 horse covered almost one third were listed as “Unknown breeding”. As a student of statistics 1/3 is a pretty large percentage.

Most of which stated “Warmblood of unknown breeding”. So to me this begs the question if the breeding is “unknown” how can the owner/seller call the horse a “warmblood”.

A lot of the horses only had the name of the sire no dam information.

In the TB world of breeding the mare is the goose that lays the golden eggs not the stallion. Pretty much anyone can get to any stallion they want if they have the funds. Very few can acquire proper mares even if they have the funds. The best rarely change hands. But with the vast and easily accessible information we are able to identify, find desirable members of a family that we might be able to buy into.

I have yet to be able to figure out how this is done in the world of Sport Horse breeding. It seems to me a lot of valuable information/statistics are kept “in-house”. Not much different than the way things used to be in the TB world but that was decades ago.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;8884770]
She is Tadmus (Calvados/Concorde). Her mother is national hunt breeding: Broken Hearted/Carlingford Castle/ Deep Run. Abba’s daughter is by Vancouver (Heartbreaker/Larome) Vancouver is from the damline of Woklahoma.

Terri[/QUOTE]

Seems to me if I was going to breed Sport Horses I would certainly attend the National Hunt sales looking for fillies and mares.

[vineyridge]

I’m not really up on what statistics are available for WBs, but I do know that the KWPN used to have freely available online breeding indexes and stats for their stallions. Not sure if they have the same info available for mares. Horsetelex has some performance data available for the horses that are in their database. You can put in a name, and they will show the foals from each mareline for several generations, along with the level of performance that the horse attained. The German FN produces loads of statistics as do their member registries. Some is available free online, but most has to be purchased. The Holsteiner Verband publishes a “marebook” that is very complete on their families.
The Trakehners have always been a mare oriented registry in the past, but I have no idea what stats they collect and make available, either for purchase or for free.

Both the Swedes and the French have various breeding and performance indexes that could only be compiled from individual statistics.

But all of these are discreet compilations, in part because all the registries are more or less in competition with each other.

[Equilibrium]

Unfortunately the old National Hunt breeding is fading fast. Very hard to find this breeding anymore. I would love another Stella but I’m not young anymore so happy to stick with what I have.

Terri

[Equilibrium]

And actually Ireland is the 3rd leading producers of TB’s in the world. The country only has 4.5 million people. No problem with finding a TB. Finding one for sport breeding, a different matter.

Terri

[Equilibrium]

[QUOTE=Elles;8884795]
I found a video. Nice![/QUOTE]

Thank you Elles! The ones with Mabel show her off well.

Terri

[Elles]

On a German forum:
http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/showthread.php?81379-Stute-für-die-Warmblutzucht
Ich war im Frühjahr bei den Hindernisrennen in Cheltenham. Ganz ehrlich, da waren Stutemodelle dabei, die ich mir sehr gut in der Warmblutzucht vorstellen könnte.
Translation:
In the spring I was at the obstacle racing in Cheltenham. Honestly, there were mare types, which I could imagine very well in warmblood breeding.

[Cumano]

Doing a search of “Warmbloods for sale” the asking prices are pretty hefty. The sellers list the sires but give little to no details of the dams let alone the extended distaff family. How is one to know if the dam has been bred to the same stallion numerous times and none have made it to the “races”. Or if the odd one never got beyond “pony club schooling shows”.

WB breeding is very much “mare line” oriented. The importance, not only of the dame, but of the whole mare line is the corner stone of a good quality breeding program. As for the relevant information, it is available for those who want to search. However, as mentionned before, I think it was by Vineyridge, it is not as centralized as it seems to be with the TB organization. You must know where to look. Generally, breeders will be proud of their mare lines, and will be the first one to put it forward.

Also, maybe the information is not presented in the same form as with the TB industry. Again I may be wrong, but TB breeders seems to work a lot with statistical datas, and information available seems to be presented a lot as statistics. How many products produced by line X bred to line Z, how many groupe 1 winners, better on short distance or long distance etc… Information available on WB lines seems to be more qualitative than quantitative. It is easy to find the production of a stallion or a dame line, and generally the frequence with which each has produced GP jumpers, or 1m40 and up jumpers. You can also easily trace back the products through different tools, and make correlations within the crosses to try to arrive to general rules as to which stallions have crossed best with your lines, but it is not generally presented as such. But what information in the end WB breeders mostly focus on is individual based. The stallion itself, the quality of his dameline and his production. Regarding the mare lines, what are the products of that line, first up close and then going furtherdown. What are they producing with regularity and what is to be improved. Studbooks have came up with a variety of indexes but it seems that WB breeders think more in terms of caracteristics and individual horses than in terms of numbers.

[Elles]

Okay, one off topic post from me but could we please stay with the Thoroughbred subject and not discuss non-TB lines and breeding?
Here a small example of how knowledge is being shared.

http://www.dbfs.nl/kennis-database/
KENNIS DATABASE
Veel fokkerijkennis zit in de hoofden van fokkers, die jarenlange ervaring hebben met hun merrielijnen. In deze kennisdatabase wil de DBFS interessante artikelen publiceren die bijdragen aan het vastleggen en overdragen van kennis en ervaring.
In de kennisdatabase vindt u actuele informatie over goedgekeurde dekhengsten in de rubriek Hengsten.
Goede merrielijnen vormen de basis voor succesvolle fokkerij van sportpaarden. In de kennisdatabase vindt u interessante artikelen over succesvolle merrielijnen.
In de rubriek Succesvolle fokkers verzamelen we de verhalen over springpaardenfokkers, die hun ervaringen graag met u delen.
Translation:
knowledgebase

A lot of breeding knowledge is in the minds of breeders who have years of experience with their mares. This knowledge base will publish the DBFS interesting articles that contribute to the capture and transfer of knowledge and experience.
In the knowledge database for the latest information on approved sires in section Stallions.
Good mare lines are the basis for successful breeding of sport horses. In the knowledgebase you will find interesting articles about successful mare lines.
In the section Successful breeders we collect stories about jumping breeders who like to share with you their experiences.

[Cumano]

@gumtree;8882711

“Is it true that the American TB’s are too downhill?”

It seems an incredible amount of emphases, talk is only about the sire with little to no regard/discussion given to the distaff side of the equation.

…

The same can’t be said for the distaff side of Sport Horses. At least not easily when I try and research them.

…

All of the discussions and or questions in this forum are always about a certain sire/stallion. Granted I don’t read everything written in this forum or about WB breeding. But I have yet to stumble on a discussion about distaff families, broodmare sires etc. To me based on what I have read WB breeders are sort of “grasping at straws”.

I just quoted part of your post but I found it very interesting. I can understand your perception but I do not think it reflects the goals of the WB breeding. Breeders should always focus on the dame line first and formost, and this is exactly what the best WB breeders do.

WB breeding her in America is very young. Getting people to focus more on the importance of the mare lines and of knowing the mare lines they are working with is often a struggle within our community. It is easy to buy the best stallions, and people know all the biggest names, which makes the marketing of their products easier. However, it is hard to find, and even harder to acquire, the best mares from the best dame lines on this side of the ocean.

Also, if you have been focusing on post related to TB, you are right they have been focusing, more often then not, on the stallion. Traditionally, WB breeders have incorporated TB in their program by breeding their mares to TB stallions, and rarely the other way around. The reason is that the mare line is so important. Breeders have come to know and understand their best mare lines. Far less information regarding the sport breeding potential of TB dame lines is available and that is why WB breeders have not been breeding with TB mares historicly.

I said earlier that I found your post interesting because I kind of felt exactly the same way about the focus TB afficionado put on stallions in their post. I have been reading all post on TB pedigrees, trying to learn a little more, but it seemed to me that they are always about finding stallions in the pedigree, generally 4 to 8 generations back, and counting the number of times they appear. Almost no information on the results of their products, the quality they pass, the comment often limited to “they are known for production in sport”. In a WB pedigree, you will always find names with production in GP within the first 3 generations. If their is nothing interesting up close in the dame line, I do not even care what is in the paper 5 generations back. To be valuable for breeding sport horses, a line must have produced with regularity, every generation, close to the horse I am looking at. It seems obvious that their is a problem of perception, and probably of philosophy, on both side.

[Fred]

[QUOTE=Linny;8883419]
If I won the lottery I’d be interested in buying a couple of TB colts off of the track to train as sport stallion prospects. Essentially I’d want the same thing any upper level competitor would want (conformation, soundness, way of going) but with a bit extra. I’d want a great temperament as I think that is passed in the blood to a certain extent. The colts would have to be from sirelines and families that have produced success in some measure. The colts would have to show some real spark of talent, with the addition of brilliance. I’d send them to a top trainer or two and after a bit would sort out which horses should go to which disciplines, in order to give them the most chance to succeed.

I think that there is a great deal of potential there but it takes a ton of money, time and interest to bring it out/[/QUOTE]

Which is precisely what I did, Linny.
But instead of buying the colt off the track, he was a homebred that I did not send to the track, or to the yearling sales, which was my first intention.
But A Fine Romance was most certainly race bred.
Those colts are out there, I know it for a fact.

But it does take dedication, a willingness to swim against the stream, as well as a ton of money.

Right now I have one of those colts.
He was sold to a breeder of an Olympic competitor who wanted him for her rider as her (in her words) “next 4* horse”.
This colt has the pedigree, the conformation, the movement, and the temperament.
I bought him back because I believe so strongly in the importance of this bloodline, this individual , and in good TB horses in general.
Whether he becomes ‘that horse’ only time will tell.

[Fred]

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;8884389]

And I so wish the mighty Fred had frozen in Europe because I would have loved an F3 cross by him for my eventing program.

Terri[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Terri. It is one of my great regrets that I did not freeze AFR for export.
We always think there will be more time…
But please see my earlier post! I have a beautifully bred son, and I would be thrilled for him (and by extension his sire) to be a part of your breeding program.

Huge congratulations on the success of your youngster, and best wishes to him and you for continued success!

re an earlier comment that “if I claimed all the 1/2 Holsteiners as Holsteiners…”

I would imagine that the poster of that comment would know that a number of reg Holsteiners are in fact 1/2 TB.
I have had a few of them myself, and there is one out in my barn right now.