I for one adopted an adorable terrier x dachshund from the pound that is the most wonderful dog anyone could ever ask for. He is a model citizen, goes to the barn with me, is great with kids, learns tricks fast, doesn’t bark, doesn’t have accidents in the house, gets a long great with other dogs, has had no health problems since recovering from kennel cough at the pound. On the other hand I have known many purebred dogs that owners paid big money for that they were so proud of because both parents were supposedly amazing with great temperaments and certified this and that health-wise that have congenital problems, hip dysplasia, portosystemic shunts, brain abnormalities, atlanto axial subluxation, elbow dysplasia… I could go on and on… and they have behavioral problems, are aggressive, don’t get a long with other dogs, can’t be trusted with children, chase horses at the barn, are not easily trained (per the owner), still have accidents in the house etc…
I just think overall, if you get a cross, you are more likely to have more wild type alleles and less recessive or mutant alleles in your genetic make up, so you are less likely to wind up with these abnormalities caused by line bred animals and animals from a very small gene pool.
I also think each dog is an individual and you can go to the pound and if you have any kind of animal experience you can instantly know what kind of dog you are getting, the temperament and train-ability.
So there is my n of 1 (more like n of 1000, really).
[QUOTE=CosMonster;6163533]
I wonder, with the trainers like the OP, if some of the reason might be that you’re not seeing a lot of the good dogs.
As a trainer, you’ll be seeing a biased sample.
I see nothing wrong with either getting a dog from a good breeder or getting a dog as a rescue. Whatever the dog owner is most comfortable with should be done without judgment [/QUOTE]
I thought I also mentioned that I am probably biased but I must not have. I don’t see the good dogs that are adopted…their owners don’t need my help. So I am sure I see a sampling that has colored my view. In addition to that, those people who call me are often either novice owners or they have had dogs who self trained in the past so they have heard of, but not personally encountered, dogs with issues. I still remember how swamped I was when I got my first dog. If you get a dog that has any kind of issue at all as a first dog, it can be frightening and overwhelming…so I cut people a break there. Very likely most of the issues I see on a regular basis could be avoided if a novice owner would take an experienced dog handler with them to pick out a dog(at a shelter or foster or breeder) . If I had been able to go with this client when she picked out her dog, I would have steered her away from this puppy and maybe the whole litter.
If she would have listened.
My neighbor did take me with her to look at a litter of Shelties … and when the mother abandoned her 4 week old puppies to hide behind a couch, I told my neighbor to skip the litter and find a different breeder. She wanted one that looked like Lassie, so she bought a female, and you guessed it…she’s fearful and a biter if pushed.
Contrast that to a couple with a shy young son. They wanted a dog and asked me to find them one. Because their son was not a confident kid, when I found an older mixed breed whose owner needed to place his dogs…I brought him home for evaluation and possible placement. He was perfect. He was somewhere between 6 and 8 we guessed, he was housebroken, knew how to live with people and was a total gentleman with all of my dogs…male and female. This family had him for about 5 or 6 years and he was a joy for them.
But for me, it’s still a dog from a breeder.
[QUOTE=cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony;6163700]
I also think each dog is an individual and you can go to the pound and if you have any kind of animal experience you can instantly know what kind of dog you are getting, the temperament and train-ability.
So there is my n of 1 (more like n of 1000, really).[/QUOTE]
Only if they aren’t already kennel stressed and/or if you know something about training animals in general. Most of my clients haven’t got a clue about how to get behavior, maintain behavior or what/when to reinforce. I think going to a high stress environ and trying to sift through the dogs that are jumping and barking is a tough call for anyone who isn’t experienced. Lots of people want a dog that looks a certain way, or has expectations that because it’s a certain breed, it will be a good family pet or if it’s smart enough, it will self train. I think often people feel sorry for Dog X and bring that home, sometimes because they don’t understand that certain behavior exhibited in a shelter can indicate problems. If they have not got a clue, it’s a roll of the dice if the animal will fit.
I have run into people over the years that will fall in love with a pet store dog, and when the dog turns out to be a behavior problem (fear biting, aggression, or can’t housebreak reliably) or has physical defects (obvious hip dysplasia at a young age), and they finally put it down, yes they go right back to the pet store. Some people never learn, and won’t believe a puppy mill dog (and they had papered, registered puppy mills when I lived there) is a bad idea, and isn’t rescuing that dog, but encouraging the puppy mills to stay in business.
I find it awfully convenient that instead of placing blame where it belongs - with the irresponsible, delusional people who are running so many shelters and rescues as if the point were solely to rehome every single dog regardless of whether that dog is pet material - the pro-breeder set is content to blame the dogs and their lack of proper genetics.
Back in the 1980s, adoption and shelters were extremely successful, people had FINALLY shut up about purebreds were the only safe/reliable/sane family dogs. Then rescue went wide, and too many nutcases got involved. BUT - there are just as many nutcases involved in breeding AKC dogs. The problem isn’t that people adopt mutts and unwanted dogs, it’s that they think “Oh, well, I’m saving a life anywhere so any shelter’s good.” That’s a big problem, because it doesn’t drive bad shelters/rescues out of business, and the bad ones do terrible damage to the good ones.
[QUOTE=vacation1;6163831]
I find it awfully convenient that instead of placing blame where it belongs - with the irresponsible, delusional people who are running so many shelters and rescues as if the point were solely to rehome every single dog regardless of whether that dog is pet material - the pro-breeder set is content to blame the dogs and their lack of proper genetics.[/QUOTE]
you don’t believe genetics is a factor?
[QUOTE=cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony;6163700]
I for one adopted an adorable terrier x dachshund from the pound that is the most wonderful dog anyone could ever ask for. He is a model citizen, goes to the barn with me, is great with kids, learns tricks fast, doesn’t bark, doesn’t have accidents in the house, gets a long great with other dogs, has had no health problems since recovering from kennel cough at the pound. On the other hand I have known many purebred dogs that owners paid big money for that they were so proud of because both parents were supposedly amazing with great temperaments and certified this and that health-wise that have congenital problems, hip dysplasia, portosystemic shunts, brain abnormalities, atlanto axial subluxation, elbow dysplasia… I could go on and on… and they have behavioral problems, are aggressive, don’t get a long with other dogs, can’t be trusted with children, chase horses at the barn, are not easily trained (per the owner), still have accidents in the house etc…
I just think overall, if you get a cross, you are more likely to have more wild type alleles and less recessive or mutant alleles in your genetic make up, so you are less likely to wind up with these abnormalities caused by line bred animals and animals from a very small gene pool.
I also think each dog is an individual and you can go to the pound and if you have any kind of animal experience you can instantly know what kind of dog you are getting, the temperament and train-ability.
So there is my n of 1 (more like n of 1000, really).[/QUOTE]
Sadly, genetics don’t quite work like that.:no:
As any vet can tell you, they have as many if not more random bred dogs come in with problems than purebred, pedigreed dogs.
At least good breeders will stack the genes in their favor, but of course there is no guaranteed with any dog, it is what happens to be in there and what is expressed.
Your odds, averaging, are better with a carefully bred dog.
Yes, you can get a good OR not so good dog anywhere, any breed or mix, carefully or random bred, that is possible.:yes:
I will say to all those that have a good dog off the streets, you played larger odds and were lucky it had good genes and good upbringing, because just as many don’t.
Why? They come from purebred dogs and those genes that you don’t want in the purebred, well, those were definitely not screened for in the random bred dogs AND are still there.
Those of us with random bred dogs at times in our lives, if we didn’t have problems, we were just lucky.
Since the OP’s experience comes from training dogs, here’s MY most recent training experience:
My dog (a then-recent county shelter adoptee) was the ONLY non-purebred in his beginner class. He consistently outperformed EVERY other dog in the class, acquiring every skill faster and better than every dog there. The trainer (who worked with all breeds but specialized in GSD’s) offered a series of three training courses, and most of the dogs in my beginner class went on to the intermediate level. Except my mutt; she told me doing the intermediate would be a waste of time and put us in advanced, which was something she rarely did, and she did not allow dogs/owners to do without her recommendation. So we did the advanced class, where he once again outperformed the rest of his class, all of whom were purebred and had had eight weeks more training than he had.
Oh, and he WAS a timid, fearful dog, to the point where I felt he could potentially become a fear biter. The training made him a hundred times better. He is now a confident, friendly dog who adores children and is awaiting a therapy dog certification.
IDk if he was born with that temperament, but in his case, as well as with other fearful dogs I’ve worked with, proper, correct training made a HUGE impact on the dogs’ temperaments. And as an added bonus, I’ve never had to deal with the health (or temperament) issues that many dogs purchased from breeders can have. I would not buy a dog unless it was to be a show dog. Performance dogs can be found in rescues and shelters; it just takes more work. And I don’t have a dead dog in a kill shelter on my conscience, either.
[QUOTE=HenryisBlaisin’;6163876]
IDk if he was born with that temperament, but in his case, as well as with other fearful dogs I’ve worked with, proper, correct training made a HUGE impact on the dogs’ temperaments. [/QUOTE]
I’m sure training did help your dog, and I think it will help the dog mentioned in the original post as well. How much it will help will depend on many variables…how hard the people who live with her work at it, how well they understand the methodology/theory, where the thresholds of this dog are to name a few. I do not think she will ever be that dog which is comfortable in many situations or with all people. I hope I’m wrong but I think this dog will reach a top limit to what she can handle and that ceiling might be quite low.
It can really go either way, at least in my experience. You can find a really good dog through a rescue or through a breeder - it comes down to your personal preference. I’ve known even experienced people who have gotten a dog - from various sources - that has been different than what they expected.
However, I also look at it this way: the right dog for me is the dog that I have. I have learned something from every dog I’ve had. Some have been easy, some have been more challenging. It’s a learning process and saying, “This is where we are,” not looking next to you to see where that handler and dog are. This isn’t dog related, but when I was in graduate school I remember that obsession with someone else being ahead of me, until I realized that I needed to sit down and figure out what I needed to work on, and get started. That is how I try to approach life with dogs - start where the dog needs to start, and do your best. Not all of them will live up to your expectations, but those are just your expectations. The dog is just a dog - he doesn’t care about titles or shows, he cares about pleasing you and enjoying life. Stop and smell the flowers. The dog may have a low ceiling, but maybe her owners will be okay with that. It’s good to hear that they are seeking help and willing to work with her - the dog probably got a pretty good deal with the owners that she has.
That said, I have definitely seen people make some poor decisions in dogs. Most recently, people who should be getting an adult dog getting puppies.
[QUOTE=Casey09;6164059]
It can really go either way, at least in my experience. You can find a really good dog through a rescue or through a breeder - it comes down to your personal preference. I’ve known even experienced people who have gotten a dog - from various sources - that has been different than what they expected.
However, I also look at it this way: the right dog for me is the dog that I have. I have learned something from every dog I’ve had. Some have been easy, some have been more challenging. It’s a learning process and saying, “This is where we are,” not looking next to you to see where that handler and dog are. This isn’t dog related, but when I was in graduate school I remember that obsession with someone else being ahead of me, until I realized that I needed to sit down and figure out what I needed to work on, and get started. That is how I try to approach life with dogs - start where the dog needs to start, and do your best. Not all of them will live up to your expectations, but those are just your expectations. The dog is just a dog - he doesn’t care about titles or shows, he cares about pleasing you and enjoying life. Stop and smell the flowers. The dog may have a low ceiling, but maybe her owners will be okay with that. It’s good to hear that they are seeking help and willing to work with her - the dog probably got a pretty good deal with the owners that she has.
That said, I have definitely seen people make some poor decisions in dogs. Most recently, people who should be getting an adult dog getting puppies.[/QUOTE]
Right.
My little dog was supposed to be my next agility dog, came from agility parents, but had something wrong with her hock right off.
My friend, a specialist in small animal orthopedics, didn’t want to chance operating on her, as she didn’t think it would do much good anyway, so she has always been off in that one hock.
So, she did go thru the puppy and beginner agility classes, but never worked hard and definitely not to any competition level.
That is fine, you work with the dog you get, no matter what you expected when you got it.
She is a wonderful dog anyway, just not a wonderful agility dog.
[QUOTE=Casey09;6164059]
The dog may have a low ceiling, but maybe her owners will be okay with that. It’s good to hear that they are seeking help and willing to work with her - the dog probably got a pretty good deal with the owners that she has. [/QUOTE]
I think this dog is very, very lucky. She has owners that are smart enough to have seen her behavior going in the wrong direction and who want this dog to be more comfortable than she is.
I don’t think they have tremendously high expectations for her, but they do want a dog who doesn’t explode at people and a dog who won’t bite people.
And perhaps I should explain by what I mean by low ceiling. A low ceiling for this dog would be unable to leave her house safely (so she is not lunging at people to keep them away). What I did not mean, was that the people expect her to be a competition dog. They want a nice pet who doesn’t bite people, doesn’t harass her housemates and does basic stuff like come when called, stay off them when they come home etc.
threedogpack - Hopefully the little puppy will do okay, with a little bit of extra help.
There’s really no wrong or right here, just personal preference. Everyone has met lovely mutts and rescues, and everyone has met lovely purebreds.
I think there does need to be some clarification about “breeders” though. I highly doubt threedogpack is talking about the “greeders,” puppy mills, “BYBs” or irresponsible breeders in general. She is talking about responsible breeders who take every precaution to make sure they are producing the best animals possible (health and temperament testing, strong conformation, full support for the life of the dog, excellent matching of dog with new home, etc, etc). Now, I will agree there are some breeds I just can’t get behind because of the extremes they are bred to, but there are people who breed to AKC standards or other performance standards that can be considered extremely reputable. These excellent breeders are not the reason shelters are full; these reputable breeders make a commitment to keep their dogs safe for life, no matter how far away the new home is.
Unfortunately, MANY MANY people confuse responsible breeders with the irresponsible breeders. I know many extremely educated horse people who are themselves, irresponsible breeders, or support irresponsible breeders. You know all those cute puppies for sale at horse shows? They are often not all that well bred but have been bred by people who are, on the other hand, extremely responsible with their horses. But some people see the purebred tag or the sometimes completely worthless AKC registration and lump these “breeders” in with the good ones.
For another horse analogy, there are many people who compete with their dogs, whether in conformation or performance - just like horses. While I currently own a “rescue” as my competition horse, it can be hard to find one to compete with at the top levels, I got pretty lucky because I have a decent eye and actually knew this horse a little bit. It’s unlikely my next horse will be a rescue unless I happen upon it. The closest to a “rescue” would be purchasing an OTTB, which often are the furthest thing from a rescue. Some people also compete with their dogs and just have more trouble finding an appropriate candidate from a rescue situation. There are “rescue at all costs” types for dogs that own expensive horses while thousands of horses take double decker trips to Mexico for slaughter. Nothing wrong with that at all, and unwanted horses don’t reach anywhere close to the number of unwanted dogs and cats, but it’s something to think about.
Health issues: I’ve known many purebred horses and dogs that were bred by irresponsible people that I wouldn’t buy for a nickel. These kinds of animals often have conformation issues and health issues because of poor breeding. That’s not to say a responsibly bred animal can’t come out wrong, but it’s less likely. Also, when considering “hybrid” vigor in mutts, it’s important to remember that MANY irresponsible people cross unhealthy, low quality purebreds to create equally low quality and unhealthy mutts. Some breeds have mega health issues that keep me away, but at least I know what they are ahead of time and can choose accordingly. A mutt can have just as many issues, and you have less of an idea what they might be.
My current dog is actually a retired racing greyhound, and we love her. When we got her, my situation required some pretty stiff conditions in a dog (work schedule, small apartment, no yard, limited time, etc). I wanted a dog with a more known background, so we worked with shelters that could foster - many of those tend to be purebred rescues.
Shameless Greyhound plug: A retired racer ended up being our best option, and we’ve NEVER regretted the decision. She’s stunning and came to us almost perfectly trained for what we needed = ) She’s unflappable (except thunderstorms!) and is perfect for our lifestyle.
In our family, we will probably tend towards purebred rescues and eventually a reputable breeder for a competition dog. If I were to get super into dog showing or agility, a higher percentage of my dogs would be from reputable breeders, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. If we someday have a lot of time and space, however, I would love to own or foster difficult dogs and give them the background to get into a happy home.
I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting to get “just” a pet from a reputable breeder. Sure, it’s not a guarantee of what you’ll get (a purebred adult from a rescue that fosters is often a much better guarantee, honestly, even a mutt), but it often gives you a better shot of having a compatible dog than going to your local shelter and trying to pick one after 30 minutes of looking. I think a lot of people lack the proper skill and resources to work with some of the more challenging dogs in rescues, and a busy high-kill shelter is going to have a lot harder time making a great match. [B] Something to consider for more novice owners for sure.[/B]
[QUOTE=alspharmd;6163600]
Many “purpose-bred” dogs are bred for one purpose – to make money for their breeders.[/QUOTE]
This has got to be one of the worst statements I’ve seen on here yet!
Most breeders I know make little to no money on their litters. When you consider all the time and money spent on training, titles and health testing that is done prior to breeding.
This is the perfect example of why dogs in rescue should spend ample time in a foster home and be temperament tested BEFORE being adopted out to a new home.
[QUOTE=vtdobes;6165169]
This has got to be one of the worst statements I’ve seen on here yet!
Most breeders I know make little to no money on their litters. When you consider all the time and money spent on training, titles and health testing that is done prior to breeding.[/QUOTE]
I think you mistake “most breeders you know” with “most breeders”.
Legitimate breeders don’t make much on their litters. In fact, many lose money. But they are dwarfed by the mills and bybs that cater to the general public who want a “purebred” pup this weekend.
The statement that upset you is no worse than “all rescues are crazy”. Just like breeders there are great ones and horrific ones. Perhaps they’re even the same percentages.
With what is charged for “fashionable” breeds, I can’t see how a breeder can fail to make some small profit at least. I looked at French Bulldogs for a while–can’t find one that is less than a couple thousand and pups with better bloodlines are $3-4K! Even with small litters and delivery by C-section that is a nice profit. I don’t begrudge them one cent of it, because it is a buyer’s market and uncommon and trendy things command high prices. It is a little sad that puppies are commodities, but that they are, along with anything else that is bought and sold.
I think a lot of breeders make money by breeding their dogs. But a lot of them just re-invest that money into their dogs - with shows, performance titles, etc. My dog’s breeder used her “puppy money” to build a new kennel one year, and another time to finish a portion of their garage for grooming.
I don’t imagine that most “good breeders” breed the puppies “for the money”. One bad or unhealthy litter and you could lose money, as well as reputation, or end up with a puppy/dog that doesn’t work out and they have to take back.
I think the bottom line is that if you try, you can always find examples of well-bred dogs that were horrible, and unintentionally bred dogs (from the pound, rescue, backyard) that were fabulous.
I don’t subscribe to the “hybrid” vigor theory, though - mixed breed dogs aren’t hybrids anyway. Unintentional (or poorly planned) breedings are more likely to contribute to problems like hip dysplasia that are prevalent in many different breeds. And the resulting temperament will be unknown. Not that you can guarantee anything with intentional breeding, but you have control of more factors, including whether or not you actually breed your dog at all!
In the end, I think most dogs are “good” dogs anyway…no matter how they were conceived. I really don’t know that many people who have “bad” dogs - purebred or mixed breed - do you?
(I do know quite a few bad owners, though). Hmmm…nature v. nurture…
And this is why I hope a particular rescue will approve us when I decide it’s time for a new lap dog.
With a young child, I will no longer take a chance on something right from the pound. I want someone else to have handled it for a while and who can help decide if it is a good match.
