Thanks for the clarification and new “title” for our horses. Politically correct, I’m sure…but our horses are loud solid colors with white mixed in!! I will now know the correct term, though!! I hear you about the cup of tea and a good read, but it’s way more fun and easier to come to COTH and pick the experts brains!! Good to know where the “red” came from, too!! Rambo was bright chestnut and white, but produced only a couple of chestnut foals over his whole breeding career.
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7678747]
I know about frame…wouldn’t touch one with a ten foot pole for breeding stock…but APHA calls the lacey colored/white pattern that our horses possess “overo” and registers them that way. What would you call it?? They are white based with lacey black/brown/bay/chestnut (only one) colored hair. I’d like to know the current reference “label” for future discussion. [/QUOTE]
This is why you don’t look to the APHA for pattern (or color) accuracy 
They only see Tobiano and Overo. They do not have any classification for any of the Overo patterns. Everything that is just Splash is registered as Overo with them, and that’s even assuming there’s enough white (which is also stupid). So, when talking to them, they are Overo. But for color breeding considerations, they are something else - Splash, and/or Sabino, and/or DW.
Why do you mention Sato?? Our line goes from Puchilingui to Puchi’s Rambo to our mares…no palomino/Sato connection. His palomino must have come from his dam. No relation here, just same grandsire.
The connection is Puchilingui, and the assumption that his W5 was attached to his E, not his e. But, Sato is a red-based W5, and Puchi’s Rambo is a red-based W5. It’s not about the palomino, it’s about the red-based vs black. It’s just trying to piece together which Extension allele the W5 is attached to
If the “white” mare is actually bay as we thought…how did we get a chestnut baby?? There are no chestnuts in Challenged’s family line for a long way!!! I know it is a recessive gene, but for how many generations??
She has a red gene, and obviously Challenged does as well. Theoretically you can have red hide for 100 generations. But, his chestnut isn’t that far back. 3 generations back, Gana Facil, is listed as chestnut. Given that breeding Ee to Ee only gives you a 25% chance of chestnut, unless there are enough foals, an Ee stallion might never produce a chestnut, especially if never bred to a chestnut mare. One has to remove all the EE mares from the stats too, as they will never produce chestnut, ever.
Another thought…do any of you experts have any thoughts on whether a stallion has any greater influence on “color genetics” than the mares?? Rambo sired almost 100% colored foals of many breeds - TB, QH, WB all solid mares. Jagged Illusion sired two colored foals o/o one solid bay/brown TB mare and a 1/2 TB, ISH mare…solid dark brown, no white. 2 for 2 =100%. We now only have daughters of these two stallions and the mares are not as prolific with their spots!! Just poor luck??
Colors aren’t sex-linked, at least none that I know of, so no. What matters is what type of spotting pattern they have, whether they are hetero or homozygous for it, whether they have any suppression genes going on (and pass them), and whether there are multiple white patterns coming together to increase the presentation of each of them.
There is also some evidence - reasons not known that I know of - that relatively minimal offspring of loud parents tend to produce loud again. Not always, not predictable, but in some cases that’s becoming a pattern.
I mentioned Sato because he is from the same bloodlines. He had to get his spots from Puchilingui’s chestnut/white gene, so there is a 93% chance Puchi’s Rambo also got a chestnut/white gene from Puchilingui, since he displayed white. Rambo’s daughters then also got his chestnut/white gene (again 93% chance), hence why they can be bay and have chestnut foals, of course, those chestnut foals then have a 93% chance of being white. Your all white girl’s foal might be hiding the Dominant White, if she is indeed a bay. You should test the all white girl and see what her extension status is. It’s not super expensive and it would give you a better idea of what is going on with her.
Chestnut can hide indefinitely. That’s how chestnut Frisians pop up every now and then. You should take Kerole’s advice and peruse the equine color genetics info. It can be a bit complicated, but I personally find it fascinating.
It is important that you refer to your horses’ colour by the correct term. It is misleading to call them Overo. APHA currently has no tick-box for Dominant White so they are incorrectly lumped in with the Overos. This does not mean they should be referred to as Overos!
I realise it seems a bit weird to call a mostly solid horse with some white bits ‘Dominant White’ but it is that none-the-less. You will lose credibility using the term Overo in this context.
Thanks to everybody for the great info. We breed for quality/user friendly, sport horses…the chrome and spots are a bonus. The mares we have … 7 breedable, plus our best producing mare who is retired will ALL stay with us until they die. It is great to have all the genetics knowledge, but I still like to be surprised at foaling time!! The flashy chestnut filly is 3/4 TB/Irish Sport Horse will mature close to 17 hands and will be offered for sale…that is what we strive for and with only one stallion, keeping fillies is not a goal. I do appreciate all this knowledge!! Thanks.
Well my stallion Wild By Design was from the same Puchilingui family. The foals ranged from solid ( out of a chromeless bay mare) to unspotted but high chrome (tall stockings and wide blaze) to 50/50 white spotted to all white.in one case the mare was rabicano, 2 offspring with one being the well spotted and a full sibling was chromeless. Now we have his white son. Juniors dam looks splash, so he might have that in the mix too. They are olws negative/ no frame. Junior had 4 foals so far : bay roan mare, chestnut based white filly. Chestnut sabino mare, chestnut based white colt. Black mare with 2 full sibling Colts: both black with striped hooves, 4 white stocking…1 with a star one without.Black tends to suppress overo expression
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[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7677777]
WOW!!! You guys are great…but the information is overwhelming!!!
First…mares are all sired by our Puchi’s Rambo (by Puchilingui, o/o Copper Anna (chestnut mare with some white) I know Puchi is dominant white, but for simplicity purposes we’ve always called our produce “overo” versus tobiano and there are no frame characteristics. We have produced some “whites”, but IMO they are just max white bays and chestnuts (red or black bonnets at birth.)
We have never crossed our Rambo mares to a tobiano stallion…we got plenty of color out of Rambo.
Our current stallion is “Challenged” - Unbridled’s Song o/o Money Madam by AP Indy. No color in that family tree that I’m aware of. http://www.pedigreequery.com/challenged We have not had any LWO’s to my knowledge…Rambo was only bred to solid mares and Challenged was bred to three mares who each produced a live foal.
I do follow “most” of your explanations, but…can I expect to ever get loud overo body white (or whatever you want to call it…) in future breedings to the same mares?? Are these sons and daughters able/likely to pass on “color”?? How do horses with “just plain chrome” stockings, etc. vary from W5??
Thanks… so far!![/QUOTE]
In reference to no olws loss: was he tested for it? Being bred to only solid mares is no guarantee the mares do not carry it. Odds are not good he has it , don’t know any Puchilingui horses that do…but best to be safe.
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7678462]
Yes, Challenged is the flashy stud…dark brown, blaze and 4 high, uneven/jagged stockings. The mares/foals are this:
- Chest/white loud overo = dark brown (shedding to black on body, but not black) big ? mark blaze, two high stockings, one med, stocking, one white spot on heel. Looks like he tried to bolt/duck when they applied his “white”!!
- Dark brown/white loud overo (full sister to Jagged Illusion) = very dark brown, no leg white, odd reverse ? star, strip on face.
- Totally white with one 3"x3", colored spot on her windpipe. We always assumed she was bay based because she had black skin/hairs at poll. Spot looks “bay”. Guess not…she had a bright chestnut (haven’t had a chestnut in 10 years!) with a symmetrical blaze, stockings right to the knees and hocks. This is a 3/4 TB, ISH. Others are TB.
What is “KIT”??[/QUOTE]
The third mare might be bay.if sire and dam are both bay carrying a recessive chestnut the bay is expressed/ dominant but 25% chance of a chestnut foal
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7678747]
I know about frame…wouldn’t touch one with a ten foot pole for breeding stock…but APHA calls the lacey colored/white pattern that our horses possess “overo” and registers them that way. What would you call it?? They are white based with lacey black/brown/bay/chestnut (only one) colored hair. I’d like to know the current reference “label” for future discussion. Why do you mention Sato?? Our line goes from Puchilingui to Puchi’s Rambo to our mares…no palomino/Sato connection. His palomino must have come from his dam. No relation here, just same grandsire. If the “white” mare is actually bay as we thought…how did we get a chestnut baby?? There are no chestnuts in Challenged’s family line for a long way!!! I know it is a recessive gene, but for how many generations??
Thanks for all this info.
Another thought…do any of you experts have any thoughts on whether a stallion has any greater influence on “color genetics” than the mares?? Rambo sired almost 100% colored foals of many breeds - TB, QH, WB all solid mares. Jagged Illusion sired two colored foals o/o one solid bay/brown TB mare and a 1/2 TB, ISH mare…solid dark brown, no white. 2 for 2 =100%. We now only have daughters of these two stallions and the mares are not as prolific with their spots!! Just poor luck??[/QUOTE]
Well for being a color registry the APHA is remarkably inaccurate.pretty much anything not tobiano is overo to them there isn’t a limit on how long a recessive chestnut can lurk.DNA testing is only way to know for sure.but. if the mare had a chestnut foal, that already answers your question.I have not noticed any gender bias on the colored foals…just red/ black bias. Only had one chromeless chestnut foal, his dam is a solid bay chrome killer Bold Ruler mare. No colored black foals.of 4 all white foals: 2 Colts, 2 fillies.
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[QUOTE=camohn;7685031]
In reference to no olws loss: was he tested for it? Being bred to only solid mares is no guarantee the mares do not carry it. Odds are not good he has it , don’t know any Puchilingui horses that do…but best to be safe.[/QUOTE]
I believe she’s referring to the Challenged stallion, who does not have any Frame/LWO in his pedigree
The Puchi line horses don’t carry it either. There are just a very small handful of TBs lines who do - 3 afaik. Some talk about the Halo line carrying it, but that’s misleading because while it was Sonny’s Solo Halo (Halo) x Patchy Lassy (Pesty Axe) who produced the well-know frame Racey Remarque, the frame comes through the Patchy Lassy side. Patchy Lassy is the product of 2 genetic half-siblings, both by Give Em The Axe. I don’t know for sure but I’m fairly certain it has to be The Axe who gave the frame, but beyond that I don’t know where he got it from - Mahmoud or Blackball.
Blue Ghazi is the source of another line - he ended up producing Blue Eyed Streaker who’s probably the best known of that line. Tri Chrome is another.
Great Deal is another source. His Frame came from either his sire Caro or from his dam’s female line (as it wasn’t the dam’e sire line)
Ok, back the truck up LOL I looked more closely at Challenged - Sire’s dam’s sire is Caro.
What I don’t know is whether Unbridle’s Song is a carrier (if Caro was even the source of it in the Great Deal line. Since it’s unlikely US will be tested 
it might be worth testing Challenged just to be sure.
[QUOTE=camohn;7685027]
Well my stallion Wild By Design was from the same Puchilingui family. The foals ranged from solid ( out of a chromeless bay mare) to unspotted but high chrome (tall stockings and wide blaze) to 50/50 white spotted to all white.in one case the mare was rabicano, 2 offspring with one being the well spotted and a full sibling was chromeless. Now we have his white son. Juniors dam looks splash, so he might have that in the mix too. They are olws negative/ no frame. Junior had 4 foals so far : bay roan mare, chestnut based white filly. Chestnut sabino mare, chestnut based white colt. Black mare with 2 full sibling Colts: both black with striped hooves, 4 white stocking…1 with a star one without.Black tends to suppress overo expression
,[/QUOTE]
Fact or not…I do think the Puchi line boys are better color producers than the mares!! Among all solid mares, Rambo produced 7 wild colored foals out of 7 breedings to a plain black TB mare. Not one white hair on her!! Jagged Illusion sired two foals before his untimely death. Both mares were plain, dark browns - NO white to speak of…TB mare had a lovely colt with very high stockings and a jagged blaze. ISH mare had a very loud, high stockings, blaze, lacey white on “almost black” based filly. So far, the Rambo fillies bred to the black ISH stallion, Seattle Blues (one had a blaze, one white stocking like daddy) and now Challenged have all failed to produce a single spot!! Chrome, stockings, blazes, white chins, but not one body spot!! Good news is they are all fantastic babies!! I am not complaining…just bewildered!!! We were sure Challenged would add some colored genes!!
[QUOTE=camohn;7685031]
In reference to no olws loss: was he tested for it? Being bred to only solid mares is no guarantee the mares do not carry it. Odds are not good he has it , don’t know any Puchilingui horses that do…but best to be safe.[/QUOTE]
All foals conceived were accounted for. No empty mares, aborted fetuses or OLW foals.
Another question…Since the genes are recessive…Would the flashy brown colt by Challenged o/o a loud Puchi’s Rambo mare have the ability to pass DW spotting to distant, related Rambo offspring??
Quite possibly.if he’s flashy he may be minimally expressed, especially on a dark base.
Out of curiosity what is the name of the black mare producing flashy foals. Curious to look at the pedigree…
Her name was “Miss Lucky Priss” - a successful show hunter.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/miss+lucky+priss
Added. It was one of her loud daughters that foaled the “plainest” filly this year!! Stunning, TALL dark bay/brown with only an odd star and short strip. Mare is full sister to Jagged Illusion. Go figure!! We have another full sister to Jag bred for next near. Here’s hoping!!
Dominant White is not recessive. Unlike recessive chestnut, you only need one DW allele to be passed to make a DW foal.
It is possible that the flashy brown colt is a minimally marked DW and if so, he would produce 50% DW offspring.
It is also possible that his markings came from something else like sabino in which case he would not be able to make any DW foals.
Also, just because your foals to date have not been unlucky enough to be OLWs does not mean your stallion does not carry it. As a stallion owner and breeder, you need to be informed so you can make informed decisions along the way. Getting him tested is the responsible thing to do. It is not expensive and it will put the whole OLWs question to bed.
So DW is not associated with sabino to make “color”?? They are separate?? Now I’m lost!!
