This one is actually Herod line on top. He’s used for breeding jumps racers in France, and his fee is 1500 euros. I think he’s gorgeous, and think he would make very, very nice sport horses. He doesn’t make very good race horses.
His name is Brave Mansonnien.
https://www.pedigreequery.com/brave+mansonnien
http://www.france-sire.com/etalon-17…mansonnien.php
1500 isn’t cheap unless one is breeding race horses or cutting horses.
For instance, breeding to Olympic Emerald is 800€ a dose.
Wow! He ran over 3500 m courses (over 2 miles)! Nice big bone. I always like to see Caro. I bought an 18 year old Cozzene/Stage Door Johnny mare this spring. She looks like a warmblood - huge feet, big bone, uphill build. She has had 10 foals, 2 of which have raced over 50 times.
The stud fee is the least of a breeder’s worries…
You’d be surprised. When a breeding to even the most expensive WB is generally a fraction what it costs to breed to a TB stud, breeders are generally not willing to breed to “successful” TB racing sires because they cost so much. One needs to find TB sires who are relatively competitive with WB sire pricing in order to keep the TB in sport horse breeding…
Most wb breeders have zero interest in using race bred tbs as sires, even if they could do so for free.
99% of TBs are racebred, and in Germany in order to stand to WBs, they pretty much have to have raced. Heraldik raced. Lauries Crusador raced. WB breeders may not want TBs, but the registries still do, unless they have changed in the past three years or so.
Most wb breeders didn’t breed to Lauries Crusador, right? Or any other tb. Yes, tbs are selectively used, but also quite rarely used, especially today with so much top stock being such a high percentage of blood already. Of course tbs will continue to be selectively used, but they will also continue to be used rarely (except by Americans who breed lots and lots of tb mares to wb stallions to produce horses for largely low-mid level amateurs). There is nothing wrong with that at all, as there’s nothing wrong with producing anything for which there is a market, but those producing for the top of the sport aren’t breeding a lot of f1s and as I said above, wouldn’t do it even if it were free breedings.
[quote=“ladyj79,post:8,top
Lauries Crusador xx
He was frequently used by the breeders right from the very beginning. He had not only a considerable influence on the mare population in the Kehdingen area, but also on the whole Hanoverian breed. There are totally 1560 registered offspring, 349 mares registered into the Studbook, among them 103 state premium mares. He fathered 39 licensed sons, 13 of them being registered into the premium stallion register. 546 registered competition horses complete this impressive balance. With his successful offspring, the thoroughbred stallion Lauries Crusador xx is certainly about to create a new Hanoverian stallion line.
Le Bo counts among his most successful offspring in sport. In 2005, he ranked third at the German Dressage Championships for lady riders under Carola Koppelmann. The former Verden elite auction horse Lesotho and Ellen Schulten-Baumer belonged to the Olympic team in Athens. The stallion Louis Heslegard and Gerda Lehmann participated with the Grecian Olympic team. At the World Equestrian Games in Aachen, Le Primeur competed with Marie-Line Wettstein for Switzerland.
The Lauries Crusador xx-son Londonderry created a sensation; he won his stallion licensing as well as the Federal Championships of four-year-old stallions in Warendorf. Apart from that, he also underlined his excellent prepotency. Two of his sons entered the scene this year: Locksley II won the Federal Championships of four-year-old stallions, just like his sire, and at the 115th Verden Elite Auction, Londontime was sold at the incredible, sensational price of 510,000 euro, a sum never achieved at a riding horse auction organized by a German breed society so far.
Photo copyrighted: Werner Ernst
Yep, Lauries Crusador, who produced one excellent son, other good ones, and a lot of good/great breeding stock. Thoroughbred blood absolutely has its place in the breeding of sport horses.
thoroughbred stallions are incorporated infrequently with a specific purpose, generally with a longer term breeding goal in mind.
As I said above, most warmblood breeders are not with any regularity breeding to thoroughbred stallions, and would not do so even if it were free.
Lauries crusader is a known producer of top sport champions, and you can still breed to him for 750€, half the price of the unproven stallion who prompted this thread.
Lauries Crusador had over 1000 foals. I’d say he was successful as a WB sire.
But his frozen is crappy, and everyone knows it. I agree that racing TB sires are overpriced, even at the low end.
Going back in time, tho, the TB was essential in producing the WB of today with more refinement/elegance and interior qualities. There comes a time when there is enough TB and the WB can carry itself - but now and then a fresh infusion may be necessary or desirable as sport requirements ebb and flow.
Well I think statistically, you’d be right in saying “most breeders” – but that doesn’t mean the important ones aren’t - they are very interested in TB blood, and have sourced several to stand for mare owners because there is a demand for them. The average home-made operation? Probably not interested in the TB sires – but the registry’s vision has to look ahead, and TBs are a part of that vision.
The big names in the registries are using TB sires, and I’d say that is more important than the people who are producing homebred horses for their own amateur designs.
There are a few recent TB stallions that are approved for HOL and/or HAN breeding (or, have sons that are) - that top studs stand, or have bred to. Some of these stallions are being deliberately linebred to, too.
Koenigspark xx
Fragonard xx
Il Divo xx
Faberger xx
Lauries’ Crusador xx
Coconut Grove xx
Heraldik xx
Cyrkon xx
Mytens xx
Armand xx
That is not necessarily a small roster, in the scheme of things.
Of special interest to the Verband appears to be Dashing Blade and Acatenango; the verband is standing, IIRC, four or five TB stallions directly descended from them - perhaps in no small part because both of those stallions seem to tenaciously pass on soundness and jumping ability.
Some of those TBs, above, are not cheap in terms of stud fee – some are.
I will plug for Londonderry. I don’t think anyone except for his breeder knew what an incredible horse he would be. I am consistently wowed by his kids. I don’t believe that was a fluke, and maybe it restored some mare-owner faith in the power of blood, because Londonderry is the son of a full TB, and at the time, that was not necessarily a good thing.
^^^^ In the interests of brevity, my post above basically agreed with the above.
Koenigspark xx dead
Fragonard xx a better choice than faberger
Il Divo xx another dashing blade son
Faberger xx dead? Age 22, approved only trak and SA.
Lauries’ Crusador xx dead
Coconut Grove xx dead
Heraldik xx dead
Cyrkon xx
Mytens xx dead
Armand
yes, as I said above, the tb plays a part, but no longer a large part in developing sport horses.
of the ten tbs listed above, six are dead, and only coconut grove had a successful career in one of the olympic disciplines. I do think he was underutilized in life, although there is still some frozen available i believe.
of the four remaining two are out of the same sire (three over all, definitely a line that has earned its place with Holstein).
there’s just not a compelling reason for many breeders to breed to straight tbs. Interesting though you didn’t mention the Gemini twist et al offspring, which are very interesting.
There IS a compelling reason for breeders of the Traditional Irish Horse to find suitable TB stallions. That is why I was looking in France for suitable stallions.
BTW, the list left off Ituango, a stallion who was the sire of FischerRocana, Michael Jung’s mare who won Rolex twice. He’s probably dead also or pensioned. She has a full sister who has produced 4 fillies to WB stallions.
Marbach stands three full TBs–Asagao, Il Divo, and Ituango. Kubaner stands in Saxony, Likoto is/was at Celle, and there is also Lucarelli. Sea Lion’s semen is available through Celle, and there is a horse called Signum somewhere in Germany. Gemini is listed also.
Those are the only TB stallions listed on Horse Telex tonight.
So far my TB stallion has a fixed group of people that are eagerly following every move he makes. These are showjumping people and eventing people. The thing is that I have not been very lucky in finding riders that do not ride with a rein that is too short. Most thoroughbreds cannot handle a short rein very well because of their conformation. A thoroughbred is not able to use it’s body and legs in the right way when it is ridden ldr or with a tipped in nose. It can’t get it’s hindlegs under anymore and in the worst case it can’t use it’s topline anymore to make a connection from hind to front. As so many people are riding with a short rein nowadays hardly anyone is able to ride a thoroughbred (well). Also the forward going tendency disappears when a horse is ridden ldr because the balance is gone and the engine is switched off. And the horse is not able to lift/collect itself. People should think more about the biomechanics of a horse.
In what way does being a failed racehorse stallion translate into being a good sport horse stallion?
LC was a fantastic stallion, but as with most TB stallions well used in WB breeding, he was British bred. TB breeding has changed quite significantly in the past 20 years and not for the better.
Take a good look at LC. Precious few TBs look like that anymore.
I cannot even imagine anyone paying $1,500 to breed to a racehorse stallion completely unproven in sport.
I can’t imagine someone doing it for free.
Very true and unfortunate. I hope you find someone soon.
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