Another KY Stallion Gone...

[skydy]

@snaffle1987

well duh. but there are majority ownership in syndicates. Example: Taylor Made w/ California Chrome. Those not in majority ownership were basically taken for a ride on that deal. You could own 1% of said stallion and your opinion on what occurs with it is a moot one.

Winstar Farm has a lot of power. They operate their business like a large corporation. Maximizing money the quickest way possible is the path to success and continued success. Their business model is the result of the sales arena driving the industry. Which is ass-backwards if you ask me. After those shiny new stallions lose their lustre after the first few initial seasons; profit drops for the stud farm unless he becomes something like War Front or Tapit. Winstar will replace him with the next shiniest object of the year (whisking away those injured and turned up 3 yr olds with a few G1 under their belt) to take said partial-failure’s place in the stall. It quickly and easily replaces the cashflow and the partial-failure was re-sold for a still handsome sum to stand where he will not be a competition in the US market if he suddenly finds great success.

For a farm who operates in this manner with a relatively large stallion roster which has a revolving door; it makes little sense for them to not control majority interest in the horses who enter their roster. Otherwise they are stuck with it filling a stall in their barn. And lets be honest with ourselves. the Syndicate members on most racehorses and stallions are not in it because he’s a cute and cuddly pet and a living breathing creature. Its for the money and the lucrative money side of the business dealings with the same mentality that Winstar has built their business around. Profit quickly based on sales market. When interest on US soil begins to wane; sell overseas on the basis of he had exciting first crops, a tremendous pedigree, and a handsome race record. It becomes a win-win from start to finish for any investor.

Not saying I agree with it. Not saying I disagree with it. I am sure there are stallions in most stud barns all over this country who were sold by ownership and the farm where the stallion stood was not majority interest. But this is the track record Winstar has built. Perhaps some of those stallions they have sold elsewhere they did not majority own. But you’d be kidding yourself if you didn’t think they did not control majority interest

You really don’t know what you are talking about.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@snaffle1987

But this is the track record Winstar has built. Perhaps some of those stallions they have sold elsewhere they did not majority own. But you’d be kidding yourself if you didn’t think they did not control majority interest

I think most of us want to know how you know that WinStar owns majority partnership in most of the stallions they stand? How do you know what financial and/or breeding shares each share owner may have in any given stallion; this isn’t usually public information, nor does it have to be.

Making sweeping statements without being able to cite the source tends to make the content of said statements a bit suspect and leans toward assumptions and not facts.

Yes, I think we can all agree that WinStar is running their Farm as a business. Kenny Trout owns WinStar Farm;it is not a publicly held company requiring release of financial information. Unless, of course, you have Kenny on speed dial :rolleyes:

[Texarkana]

I don’t know much about the intricacies when contracts get drawn up for breeding rights or when a stallion ends up here or there. But I know enough to know that each farm and each situation is different. I have also learned over the years that the ownership of most Kentucky stallions is far more complicated than I once assumed in my naive youth.

Trying to make blanket statements with one’s itty bitty amount of knowledge about a highly publicized situation with a different farm and a different horse is just… wrong.

But then, I know I’m preaching to the choir on that last point.

[skydy]

@snaffle1987 There are some examples of a stallion owner announcing the sale of breeding rights or that a percentage of the stallion has been sold. (I can think of one very well known stallion already in which the owner has retained 80%.)

You have to do some research to find them though. Unless there is an announcement, assuming that you know who owns the stallion, or a majority of shares, is just silly.

[LaurieB]

@snaffle1987

well duh. but there are majority ownership in syndicates. Example: Taylor Made w/ California Chrome. Those not in majority ownership were basically taken for a ride on that deal. You could own 1% of said stallion and your opinion on what occurs with it is a moot one.

Winstar Farm has a lot of power. They operate their business like a large corporation. Maximizing money the quickest way possible is the path to success and continued success. Their business model is the result of the sales arena driving the industry. Which is ass-backwards if you ask me. After those shiny new stallions lose their lustre after the first few initial seasons; profit drops for the stud farm unless he becomes something like War Front or Tapit. Winstar will replace him with the next shiniest object of the year (whisking away those injured and turned up 3 yr olds with a few G1 under their belt) to take said partial-failure’s place in the stall. It quickly and easily replaces the cashflow and the partial-failure was re-sold for a still handsome sum to stand where he will not be a competition in the US market if he suddenly finds great success.

For a farm who operates in this manner with a relatively large stallion roster which has a revolving door; it makes little sense for them to not control majority interest in the horses who enter their roster. Otherwise they are stuck with it filling a stall in their barn. And lets be honest with ourselves. the Syndicate members on most racehorses and stallions are not in it because he’s a cute and cuddly pet and a living breathing creature. Its for the money and the lucrative money side of the business dealings with the same mentality that Winstar has built their business around. Profit quickly based on sales market. When interest on US soil begins to wane; sell overseas on the basis of he had exciting first crops, a tremendous pedigree, and a handsome race record. It becomes a win-win from start to finish for any investor.

Not saying I agree with it. Not saying I disagree with it. I am sure there are stallions in most stud barns all over this country who were sold by ownership and the farm where the stallion stood was not majority interest. But this is the track record Winstar has built. Perhaps some of those stallions they have sold elsewhere they did not majority own. But you’d be kidding yourself if you didn’t think they did not control majority interest

Many years ago when I was in college my roommate turned in her first paper in a Political Science course. It was returned without a grade but with a comment I’ve remembered ever since. That same comment applies here. The teacher had written across the top of the essay:

“The first part of your paper is irrelevant and the second part is mostly wrong.”

And here we are again. :lol:

snaffle, writing all those excess words to “explain” things that everyone already knows doesn’t cover up the fact that you can’t answer my question because you have no (real life) source for your assertions. Because unfortunately they’re not based on reality.

(well duh is not a verifiable source)

[skydy]

:lol:“Well duh is not a verifiable source”.

[skydy]

@LaurieB

Many years ago when I was in college my roommate turned in her first paper in a Political Science course. It was returned without a grade but with a comment I’ve remembered ever since. That same comment applies here. The teacher had written across the top of the essay:

“The first part of your paper is irrelevant and the second part is mostly wrong.”

And here we are again. :lol:

snaffle, writing all those excess words to “explain” things that everyone already knows doesn’t cover up the fact that you can’t answer my question because you have no (real life) source for your assertions. Because unfortunately they’re not based on reality.

(well duh is not a verifiable source)

I strongly suspect that snaffle has learned everything she knows about horse racing, and breeding, from a California Chrome facebook group.

[snaffle1987]

@Texarkana

I’m just quoting for posterity.

Snaffle, I mean this kindly when I say you don’t know what you don’t know.

Maybe one day when I have more energy, I will engage you in a deeper conversation on this topic. But all I can say right now is that I hope everyone who sees this realizes it reads more like a Hollywood screenplay than reality. That’s not to say there aren’t some kernels of truth, but the end product had been over dramatized to the point it barely resembles real life.

No need to waste your time. I couldn’t care less what your personal opinion may be on my personal opinion. I am entitled to it, just as you are to yours. I wasn’t engaging anyone. Merely adding my opinion no different than any of you. Posters continue to whine and cry over Winstar selling stallions overseas. Its a regular occurrence. Sometimes a few within a year. Is anyone surprised at this point? Continue to let the sales ring steer the entire industry instead of actual performance and this is the business model the industry is creating for itself.
Your industry and its current practices are the result in and of itself. When people stop having boutique sales to drop millions and six figures on unproven yearlings and the focus no longer remains on track performance; this is what you will get. Stallions tossed over like potato chips, the gene pool dwindling to a handful of boutique stallions fitting a niche market and an ever decreasing population in the game and stallion ownership only focusing on one thing: sales profit from the first few years a stallion is in service before the offspring hit the track.

This is evident in the booking of mares to AP’s first crop. They vetted who went to him and it was only the top mares. and it turned out quite favorably for them as it propped up his first crop and they didn’t disappoint. Sure the interest in AP would’ve always been there but had they not screened the mares initially bred to him; the performance to back up this first TC winning sire in decades would not have been there to pique additional interest in him as his stallion career grew. I give credit to Coolmore for seeing the value in the performance of the initial crop; not just the sales figures of buying something from this new TC winners first crop.

But for other farms it does appear that the profit is in the first few seasons on stallions with great marketing behind them. Collect as many seasons as they can and pray the sales figures keep the interest. If not, sell the stallion and find the next one. CC’s sales figures were not backing his hype or the stud fee being charged. Overseas offer came in and it made more sense to sell while CC still had the shininess to him. Yes, its a business. Profit needs to be made and bills need to be paid. But as I state before, the current situation with stallion turnover and so forth is a product of what people have allowed the industry to become. An extreme focus on the auctions

Have yourself a great Monday .

[snaffle1987]

@Where'sMyWhite

I think most of us want to know how you know that WinStar owns majority partnership in most of the stallions they stand? How do you know what financial and/or breeding shares each share owner may have in any given stallion; this isn’t usually public information, nor does it have to be.

Making sweeping statements without being able to cite the source tends to make the content of said statements a bit suspect and leans toward assumptions and not facts.

Yes, I think we can all agree that WinStar is running their Farm as a business. Kenny Trout owns WinStar Farm;it is not a publicly held company requiring release of financial information. Unless, of course, you have Kenny on speed dial :rolleyes:

Kenny Troutt is also the founder of Excel Communications and has a track record in corporate America. He is a highly successful businessman. For me, Winstar was the first introduction of “corporate America” ideals and thinking to the Thoroughbred inner circle in KY. (not saying its a bad thing, just that their way of doing business was much different than other farms at the time) I remember the days when there was discussion of Tiznow being exported because he wasn’t living up to their initial expectations and when their stallion barn was original size and home to about 4 stallions and the rest of the stalls empty and shuttered. I cant shame them, the business they have built in about 15 years is impressive.

It just surprised me that people continue to act surprised when Winstar stallions are regularly shipped off. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.

[EventerAJ]

@snaffle1987

This is evident in the booking of mares to AP’s first crop. They vetted who went to him and it was only the top mares. and it turned out quite favorably for them as it propped up his first crop and they didn’t disappoint. Sure the interest in AP would’ve always been there but had they not screened the mares initially bred to him; the performance to back up this first TC winning sire in decades would not have been there to pique additional interest in him as his stallion career grew. I give credit to Coolmore for seeing the value in the performance of the initial crop; not just the sales figures of buying something from this new TC winners first crop.

But for other farms it does appear that the profit is in the first few seasons on stallions with great marketing behind them. Collect as many seasons as they can and pray the sales figures keep the interest. If not, sell the stallion and find the next one. CC’s sales figures were not backing his hype or the stud fee being charged. Overseas offer came in and it made more sense to sell while CC still had the shininess to him. Yes, its a business. Profit needs to be made and bills need to be paid. But as I state before, the current situation with stallion turnover and so forth is a product of what people have allowed the industry to become. An extreme focus on the auctions

Have yourself a great Monday .

Are you really criticizing a farm for “selecting” mares to breed to the first TC winner in a generation? We’re they supposed to accept mares on a first come first serve basis? Breed anything that has $$ to spend? What?

Every stallion manager screens mares! They all want the best possible mares to make their stallion successful. It is expected that a TRIPLE CROWN WINNER will get a phenomenal book of mares until he proves to be a flop. Ashford had their pick of the best mares, because American Pharoah was a sensational race horse. It is equally not surprising that he had a great juvenile crop, from himself and those great mares. It’s not JUST the mares that make him, though… Would those mares make equal foals when bred to California Chrome?

The industry didn’t think so, and that’s why CC is in Japan. He may not have had a hundred A-list mares, but from the decent mares he bred, Chrome did not produce a consistent, good-looking horse. (I’m not talking just “sales” yearling, but an animal that looks to be a future stakes horse, as judged by the best bloodstock agents in the country). They were all over the place. They weren’t received well, because the quality was too variable. And that’s not all on the mares. Maybe they’ll come out running amazing; maybe they aren’t superstar young horses, like Kittens Joy. But KJ was a project of determination and a lot of $$$, using cheaper but carefully selected mares to match him. He got a lot of great runners on turf, but a lot of “also rans” too, and they are not impressive as yearlings-2yos. Without the Ramseys, he would have been sent overseas…and possibly could have been an AMAZING stallion in Japan, way more than here. Chrome’s move isn’t just in the best interest of Taylor Made, it may also be the horse’s eat chance at success. Who knows.

[findeight]

I would have thought APs stud fee, even for the freshman crop, would have “propped up” the quality of mares he serviced without having to screen them. Of course, many ( if not most in any breed at any price) stud farms do approve the mares, they look for pedigree, conformation and any race or show records but cannot imagine they had to cull any mares at that stud fee. And, really, nothing needed to “ prop up” the quality of his first crop. Thats a pretty condescending statement.

Guess I should read more of those “industry insider bloggers” that seem to have more information then the usual publications or a few of my friends in the industry.

ETA. WinnStar currently lists 18 well known stallions on its website. Are you saying Win Star is owner or majority partner in all of them? Would Win Star really care if they weren’t majority partner and the owners wanted to keep the horse there and pay for WinnStars services? Is it not more logical to just collect the fees and take a small percentage then buy controlling interest in every multi million dollar stud they stand like other farms do? I realize you hate the guy but…really…that’s not good business and he may have partners or investors in the farm too.

Well, all but the one still on the list that passed last year but were they really majority partner in PotN?

[Where_sMyWhite]

@snaffle1987

It just surprised me that people continue to act surprised when Winstar stallions are regularly shipped off. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.

Have you seen me acting surprised when WinStar sells a stallion on their roster??

I am not. This is WinStar’s business model. I may not agree with their business model but it’s their money, their syndicates, their stallions…

[LaurieB]

@snaffle1987

No need to waste your time. I couldn’t care less what your personal opinion may be on my personal opinion. I am entitled to it, just as you are to yours. I wasn’t engaging anyone. Merely adding my opinion no different than any of you.

The problem is that the vast majority of your “opinions” are simply things that everybody already knows. Yet you lecture us about them anyway–as if you’ve discovered new information that nobody else is privy to.

Or you say something like this:

if it stands in their barn, especially most of their roster, they control majority interest once it reaches their stallion barn. Winstar is too business savvy to let a non-entity control majority interest in their stallions.

That reads like a fact. But it actually doesn’t matter if it’s supposed to be your opinion. As a fact, it’s wrong. As an opinion, it’s still wrong.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@LaurieB

The problem is that the vast majority of your “opinions” are simply things that everybody already knows. Yet you lecture us about them anyway–as if you’ve discovered new information that nobody else is privy to.

Told you… Kenny Trout on speed dial :lol:

[LaurieB]

@snaffle1987

Posters continue to whine and cry over Winstar selling stallions overseas. Its a regular occurrence. Sometimes a few within a year. Is anyone surprised at this point?

Some of us are breeding to these stallions. So we’re sorry to see them leave.

If a discussion about that irks you, feel free to scroll on by.

(By the way, when I actually start to “whine and cry” it will look nothing like this. :lol:)

[skydy]

@snaffle1987

No need to waste your time. I couldn’t care less what your personal opinion may be on my personal opinion. I am entitled to it, just as you are to yours. I wasn’t engaging anyone. Merely adding my opinion no different than any of you. Posters continue to whine and cry over Winstar selling stallions overseas. Its a regular occurrence. Sometimes a few within a year. Is anyone surprised at this point? Continue to let the sales ring steer the entire industry instead of actual performance and this is the business model the industry is creating for itself.
Your industry and its current practices are the result in and of itself. When people stop having boutique sales to drop millions and six figures on unproven yearlings and the focus no longer remains on track performance; this is what you will get. Stallions tossed over like potato chips, the gene pool dwindling to a handful of boutique stallions fitting a niche market and an ever decreasing population in the game and stallion ownership only focusing on one thing: sales profit from the first few years a stallion is in service before the offspring hit the track.

This is evident in the booking of mares to AP’s first crop. They vetted who went to him and it was only the top mares. and it turned out quite favorably for them as it propped up his first crop and they didn’t disappoint. Sure the interest in AP would’ve always been there but had they not screened the mares initially bred to him; the performance to back up this first TC winning sire in decades would not have been there to pique additional interest in him as his stallion career grew. I give credit to Coolmore for seeing the value in the performance of the initial crop; not just the sales figures of buying something from this new TC winners first crop.

But for other farms it does appear that the profit is in the first few seasons on stallions with great marketing behind them. Collect as many seasons as they can and pray the sales figures keep the interest. If not, sell the stallion and find the next one. CC’s sales figures were not backing his hype or the stud fee being charged. Overseas offer came in and it made more sense to sell while CC still had the shininess to him. Yes, its a business. Profit needs to be made and bills need to be paid. But as I state before, the current situation with stallion turnover and so forth is a product of what people have allowed the industry to become. An extreme focus on the auctions

Have yourself a great Monday .

Keep on proving to the world that you have absolutely no idea how the TB breeding business works.

Why don’t you educate yourself instead of posting inane theories that have no basis in reality?

You “give credit to Coolmore” for “screening” AP’s mare book? Really?

Every stallion’s book is “screened” so you’re “giving credit” to Coolmore for doing something that EVERY stud farm does, and that really highlights your ignorance.

[Mara]

@skydy

You really don’t know what you are talking about.

And as usual, Snaffy doesn’t care, same as in the other 14,276 instances she’s been corrected by people who really are actively participating in the racing and breeding industry. I don’t expect being told she’s wrong (yet again) will stop her from spouting her uninformed opinion in the future. She’s the Self-Proclaimed Expert here and no one is going to take that title from her without a fight.

[findeight]

Not just here. She shares knowledge and vast experience on other forums too. Just not as often

[jennywho]

Nice to see daredevil represented 1st and 3rd in the Fantasy yesterday. As a small bred to sell operation with a limited budget I have started to think twice before considering winstar studs knowing that there’s a good chance they will be gone before sale time

[Where_sMyWhite]

@jennywho

Nice to see daredevil represented 1st and 3rd in the Fantasy yesterday. As a small bred to sell operation with a limited budget I have started to think twice before considering winstar studs knowing that there’s a good chance they will be gone before sale time

I think a ‘small bred to sell’ operation with a limited budget, you are right, may not be the best fit with a less expensive or less popular WinStar stallion. If you’re looking for a mid-price stallion like Speighstown or More Than Ready or Constitution, breeding, at least to me, would seem like a safer bet than say, Outwork who is still fairly young (although Uncle Mo may make Outwork more appealing).

This is a totally non-breeding person who has been sitting on the sidelines watching the same WinStar behavior you have. They have nice horses but also seem to be a bit quicker on the trigger to sell… maybe they take a gamble more on newly retired from racing colts with a decent race/stakes record and pedigree and see where the chips fall.

I suspect that an operation like WinStar never even tried for the likes of American Pharoah or Justify…

I’m good if someone wants to tell me I’m all wet… that’s how I learn