[QUOTE=Soaponarope;8497091]
As far as I know, yes. You have to euthanize the horse to claim loss of use benefits:([/QUOTE]
I have seen loss of use claims where the insurance company took the horse, then sold it to another party. I’ve also seen loss of use cases where the owner had the option to keep the horse if they accepted a smaller payment from the insurance company.
So they’re not all the same.
[QUOTE=MHM;8497159]
I have seen loss of use claims where the insurance company took the horse, then sold it to another party. I’ve also seen loss of use cases where the owner had the option to keep the horse if they accepted a smaller payment from the insurance company.
So they’re not all the same.[/QUOTE]
Agreed! A loss of use claim does NOT always mean euthanasia. It is important to read and understand your insurance policy, as different insurance companies have different procedures for loss of use.
Nice touch here…
Know somebody who paid a little below market for an what was represented as an accomplished show horse, still in the 20-30k range. Did basic vet only, no pictures or blood work. Thing went bad within six months. Turned out somebody collected loss of use but kept the horse, ended up giving it away as a companion when they moved out of state.
It got sold a few times and ended up back in the show ring. Who knows who knew what along that ownership chain…all pled ignorance when it went to court.
Glad someone cleared that up re: loss of use. A local barn got a really fabulous A rated pony because of a loss of use policy - insurance agency took possession of the pony after it was injured, then sold it a steeply discounted price to someone who was willing to do the lay up and rehab.
This case is way more than inflated and unreported commissions, which are the source of a lot of the issues in the horse world. There’s two sides to that issue too - many amateurs have VERY unrealistic/negative views about how pros make money; which leads to secrecy/lack of disclosure of the part of otherwise honest pros, and that secrecy opens up big windows of opportunity for this kind of cheating.
But this case involves out and out fraud and misrepresentation above and beyond cheating on commissions.
One of the other things that is very poorly understood in the horse world is that if you act as an agent for a sale, either as a buyer or a seller’s agent, there are legal obligations. There isn’t a professional board overseeing it, like there is with realtors and stockbrokers, but there are legal obligations just the same.
[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8497131]
It’s wrong to focus blame on the victim. When you enter in a real estate or automobile transaction, there are well known standard procedures and contracts. Nothing is “standard” in horse sales. It’s not easy to be “in the know” enough to judge a horse trainer or horse sales/purchase agent, or to know what features your pre-purchase exam should include or how to interpret the results. I don’t think that it is unreasonable for a person with no prior experience in the horse world to assume that trainers or agents in the horse world are following the law. It’s a sad statement about the horse world that most of us think it is naive or foolish to think for a moment that a trainer or agent isn’t out to rip you off.[/QUOTE]
Some people who come into horses with little knowledge and large bank accounts seem to connect with decently reputable trainers and do ok with their purchases and investments - is that because of due diligence or blind luck?
[QUOTE=Limerick;8496762]
What I don’t understand is this trainer had a good thing going on. He was allowed to keep 25-30 horses at the farm and earn money on training, commissions, lessons etc. Why wouldn’t you buy sound, legitimate horses for your main junior client, build up a great reputation, and enjoy the sport without struggling financially??[/QUOTE]
Like any confidence man, they just can’t help themselves.
[QUOTE=findeight;8497083]
There is way too little transparency in horses anyway. No CarFax. A culture of MYOB and keep your mouth shut, even alert people can get taken until they learn to trust no one and just how deep the truth can be buried.
People can get emotionally involved with the intended purchase too, get emotionally attached far more then to a used car or house. Con men take advantage of that, although at this level, you don’t hear " the truck is coming" as a sales technique like you do at the opposite end of the spectrum.[/QUOTE]
And the culture of don’t rock the boat or you’ll get labeled a PITA client that no one will train does not help.
[QUOTE=pinkpony321;8496832]
Wow. I am also surprised that it took nearly a million dollars of bad investments before the owner got suspicious.[/QUOTE]
To some people, that’s virtually pocket change.
Even more interesting is that Debi Connor’s full name is Debi Connor Stephens — Yes, she is the wife of Steve Stephens – he of the butchered WB who had recently arrived from Europe.
And the plot thickens.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8497280]
Even more interesting is that Debi Connor’s full name is Debi Connor Stephens — Yes, she is the wife of Steve Stephens – he of the butchered WB who had recently arrived from Europe.
And the plot thickens.[/QUOTE]
Debi Connor is not the wife of Steve Stephens.
[QUOTE=ladydoctor;8497287]
Debi Connor is not the wife of Steve Stephens.[/QUOTE]
Oh! I apologize and will delete my post right now.
Check your PM’s
[QUOTE=ladydoctor;8497287]
Debi Connor is not the wife of Steve Stephens.[/QUOTE]
I concur.
I have sued for horse sale fraud. The Seller/Agent of my horse was sued big time for horse sale fraud in 2006 in Wellington before Rate My Horse Pro was around. So when I bought my horse, I did not benefit from getting a “hit” on this information from my google search of the seller prior to purchase (I do currently possess the 600 pages of this FL lawsuit though…shocking reading). But from now on if anyone googles this person’s name they will learn the information they need to before moving forward. Not sure if googling would have helped THIS plaintiff as it seems they really trusted their trainer and got taken advantage of due to that relationship.
If you go to RMHP fb page more people are defending the trainer and trashing the owners. Always 2 - 3 sides to every story.
I know MM and am not surprised by this, he has been in big with Peggy and Debi for a while, who have quite a reputation. But the kid repeatedly has horses that she can’t ride. I don’t know if they’re truly dangerous or if the kid is doing something to make these horses stop, but it sure sounds like a case they’ll make in court. Clearly some of them were in pain or known to be unrideable, but Hunter Gatherer’s stopping could be a result of either the horse or the kid. It also seems insane that this woman put this much money into horses and never questioned why each one of them were “unsuitable.”
I just can’t imagine spending 275k on a horse without every test there was, especially after being bitten a few times before. This is not at all saying trainer was not reprehensible and who knows the personal dynamic, but the failure to due due diligence on any “investment” shocks me as well.
Psst LordHelpus, you have your Debi/Debbies confused. Debbie Stevens’ maiden name was Shaffner.
Yes but think of the psychology of the personal relationships clients have with their trainers and the loyalty and sense of betrayal if the client dares to question them. Look at all the angst posts here on these forums of basically “How do I tell my trainer I am switching barns/going to a new trainer across town?”, etc. How many reasonable, smart people post here “How Do I Tell My Plumber I Am Using Another Plumber?” Never.
[QUOTE=BITSA;8497383]
I just can’t imagine spending 275k on a horse without every test there was, especially after being bitten a few times before. This is not at all saying trainer was not reprehensible and who knows the personal dynamic, but the failure to due due diligence on any “investment” shocks me as well.[/QUOTE]
Here’s something a little interesting. One of the horses mentioned in the complaint, Icon, is said to have behavioral issues which make him unsaleable. It also says he’s lame and not currently being used. Yet on their website, the horse is listed for $35,000 and advertised as very quiet, jumping 3’ courses with beautiful changes, and available to be tried in Ocala next month. 
[QUOTE=Anne;8497394]
Psst LordHelpus, you have your Debi/Debbies confused. Debbie Stevens’ maiden name was Shaffner.[/QUOTE]
Actually not her maiden name - John Shaffner was her previous husband.
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