‘Dead’ mouths start in the hind quarters.
With horses that lock their jaw and stiffen, I like to drop the outside rein and ask for bending with the inside rein only. They usually will give to it very easily and softly. No, it is not the bend you are aiming for, but it is a very relaxed starting point … they do not feel caught in a vice like they often do when a rider is not using both hands in a very sympathetic and educated manner. You can even use your inside leg to ask the horse to move sideways during some of this … sort of half of a leg yield … just moving the shoulders over and letting the hindquarters follow along … no outisde rein or outside leg … nothing that creates complexity or traps the horse in a ‘vice’ (both hands used incorrectly to the horse act as a vice on the mouth/jaw … the rider may be tense, so the horse gets tense).
I also like “combing the reins”. You really should have a pair of plain leather reins to do this well … dressage reins with the leather stops create a problem with this. Anyway, it is also not what you are aiming for, but it is very soft and relaxing for a horse that is feeling tense in the jaw.
You can talk about ‘coming through from behind’ and having a ‘through connection’ all day long, but if you don’t have it, then you need to step back and do some very simple soft encouraging excercises that invite the horse to pull lightly and reach for the bit. Both of the above excercises will encourage that.
Actually we have tried lots of different excercises and things have improved that’s for sure. I will try combing just the inside, thanks. We’re lower level but trying hard 
I’m working on improving myself as well. But she has never relaxed her mouth much. She’s always hated taking the bit into her mouth so I always reward her with a peppermint. I guess as our training progresses, so will this. I’m very happy so far. I don’t have her mouth in a vice. As I say, she doesn’t wear a nose band so if she was in a vice I would think she would be opening her mouth to avoid the contact. I try to use my seat independantly to my hands. The basics were not done at mouthing imo so I feel she doesn’t understand. I will just work on getting better but thanks for all the tips. slc2 I quite agree. This was the first thing the instructor worked on with us and I can really feel the hind under me now. More to go I feel. It really is getting to be fun!
But she has never relaxed her mouth much. She’s always hated taking the bit into her mouth
With a horse that doesn’t like the bit, picking up the other rein will always feel like a vice to them … they just aren’t comfortable with that thing in their mouth … bending them one rein at a time can feel good to them … I don’t know why, but I have seen ot work on some very anti-bit horses.
I just bought a Herm Sprenger Dynamic RS D-Ring bit for a new horse I got that started off hating the bit and trying to pull it out of my hands … he LOVES it. Now, when I go to take the bridle off, he is still sucking on the bit and I have to ask him to please release it.
I did start using the one hand bending and combing the reins with him immediately (first ride through maybe the third). I don’t use treats with this horse because he bites.
He was considered a solid 1st level dressage horse.
I have taken him back to pre-training and he is working beautifully now … two and a half weeks. When I got him he refused to let me put a bridle on. I have taken him out on trails alot … keeps him forward and his mind off of the bit. Very happy pony.
Try some trail riding. Do a one rein half-baked leg yields from one side of the road/path to the other and back again … your horse should start to soften up.
She was broken in using the one rein for turning and never taking a hold so she has done all that. She was taught to stop with me just sitting up so she has never had her mouth pulled. I think I left it too late to actually take up the contact as I hacked her out for a year with only a light contact and she likes to be on the forehand. That is why this new instructor is working hard with me to change things. I take her out around the roads 2 - 3 times a week. I do leg yielding when out plus lots of transitions. I work on the bit and also give her a loose rein. But you are so right about it being like a vice to her when I turn her left or right. I have trouble bending her inwards when working in the arena so I throw in a 10m circle every now and then. She has a nice rythm, good over tracking, nice balance. Just this ‘dead’ mouth. Her mother hated anything in her mouth too… Sounds like I’m doing all I can at this stage?
I definately would keep trying to figure it out. The Dynamic RS D-Ring I got was thinner that what I would normally use on most horses (as thinner is more severe rule of thumb) but this horse likes less bit in his mouth and really took to it. He tends to grind his teeth when he’s unhappy. Teeth grinding has also stopped.
I’m not saying that this bit would be what your horse needs, but I believe there is always a solution to making them comfortable (unless there is a deformity from genetics or an accident, then maybe go to a hackamore) … but experimenting with either different bits or different methods of simplifying things (rein aids) until you find her comfort zones … never met a horse/pony that didn’t have certain things that they like even when it comes to how you handle the rein or reins … once you figure that out, then you can always go back to it to help them relax and then move back to what you were asking before they became tense.
Is there anything that you have done where she did relax her jaw? Something is keeping her tense. Even if she does not like the bit, it is easier for her to learn somehow to relax into it … a regular snaffle of some sort (whatever fits well for her particular mouth and palette) is not that obstrusive of a device to create constant tension. Constant tension does not feel good.
Somewhere somehow there is a solution … vet, chiro, dental, bit, saddle, exercises, better riding … keep trying and be creative.
ETA: are you using your rein in a squeeze and release, squeeze and release manner? If you turn to the right (or left) there should just be a soft pull for a half second and then release, then a soft pull and release … vibrating the bit with one or both hands can help - very gentle vibrations. Also, the “squeezing water out of a sponge” and release, repeat …
hmm something keeping her tense. She seems really happy to me. Yes have tried vibrating which works for that moment. I’ve been sponging and there doesn’t seem to be any response so will keep at it. Everything else is all good. She’s had a variety of bits. Started off with an egg butt, then a loose ring snaffle (too fat), then a Myler comfort which she likes, then a french link egg butt and now a sweet iron thin loose ring snaffle. She drips froth all over us - sucks her tongue maybe? Just no give in her mouth.
Can you flex her head at the poll when you are on the ground and she is wearing a halter?
Sometimes when the horse is tense in the jaw they keep doing it … tension makes them tense viscious circle kind of thing. The jaw tension creates tension in other areas, specifically the axial vertebrae in the neck and so on down the line … through the back.
That tension is not good for her or you.
I knew a classically trained rider that rode a horse in a dropped noseband only for two years on the trails to get rid of a locked up tense jaw on a horse that had been started at the age of three in a double bridle. That combined with a good veterinarian/chiropractor that worked on the jaw and the vertabrae area at the poll and right behind the poll. This particular horse had become so tense that she reared as soon as you got on her. She had become very dangerous. She is showing Prix St. George right now and is a very happy horse.
Keep looking for answers. There is some solution that you haven’t figured out yet.
I agree. Thank you and I will keep at it. My instructor has lots of ideas and that is what we need. I appreciate your replies so much.
The problem is almost never the actual jaw itself, and therefore the problem should not be addressed at the front end of the horse. What you feel in your hands is simply indicative of what is going on in the back and hindquarters. When a horse feels stiff or heavy in your hands, you must work to activate the back and hind legs properly to truly fix the problem.
When a horse is heavy or leans on the left rein for example, the only answer that corrects the actual cause of the heaviness is to do excercises that activate and engage the left hind leg properly. Anything done with the reins, such as flexions or vibrating the rein as many seem to suggest for this problem only correct the symptom, and leave the rider with a false sense of lightness. Whereas true lightness is the result of engagement of the hindquarters.
Originally posted by BaroquePony:
No, it is not the bend you are aiming for, but it is a very relaxed starting point …
I must be feeling masochistic tonight …
lstevenson, I pointed out that it wasn’t what the rider was aiming for, but it was a start.
Rythym and RELAXATION are at the beginning of the training pyramid … truly engaging the hindquarters (as in straight and engaged) before relaxtion, rythym and forward is INCORRECT dressage schooling.
further…
You can talk about ‘coming through from behind’ and having a ‘through connection’ all day long, but if you don’t have it, then you need to step back and do some very simple soft encouraging excercises that invite the horse to pull lightly and reach for the bit.
I believe all of us who threw some out of the box ideas stated you have to START with correctly forward. 
BP just about quoted me in the above…
But you can be forward and even and still never complete the connection… isn’t that the arguement most present against bitless for dressage? That it can’t be truly correct because there is no acceptance OF THE BIT? <whistling> :winkgrin:
Relaxation means through the body and the brain, not the mouth. If the body is working correctly with the back swinging, the mouth will feel soft. It is incorrect to try to “fix” what you feel in your hand by working your hands. That is front to back riding.
question for LS and IDEAyoda -
horse is known to use under neck against rider. when under neck is used mouth becomes “dead” . rider activates hind end but everything feels rough - the back stiff, the mouth hard etc. this makes actually riding/driving the horse very difficult , so presents a bit of a circular issue.
however, if rider asks horse for flexion to inside, or puts horse on bended and bent lines incl flexion, horse will immediately become more soft over topline/hind end and then of course the mouth becomes alive, the horse becomes easy to sit on therefore drivable and aidable.
rider does not “fiddle” with the reins but asks for clear bending/flexion.
horse will follow the hand down/out etc.
is this usage of the hand hand riding?
No, that is not front to back riding.
Using the bit to promote relaxation in the jaw in a horse who is blocking connection there is not FTB riding. Using the bit to move the horse’s head WITHOUT pushing the back end into the connection is.
There is no connection without a relaxed jaw, no matter how well the hind end is moving.
You ride the whole horse… back end first, but the front end is there too
“Using the bit” to promote relaxation in the jaw is front to back riding IMO, no matter how people want to sugar coat it.
Because once again, the jaw will always be relaxed when the back and hind legs are working properly. The jaw is simply telling of the state of tension in the body of the horse. Take care of the body, and the front end will fall right into place.
Yes, contact is involved in the circle of aids to achieve the connection. Riding the horse forward from the seat and leg into a receiving, still, supple hand is correct. But “using the bit” by vibrating, massaging, give and take (which is a more politically correct way to say pull and release), see sawing, and the like are all front to back riding.
You can push a horse into a rein, but pulling back on that rein will shorten the neck and restrict the hind leg on that side. So for example, to fix the horse that is heavy on the left rein, instead of “working” the left rein, I would do a turn on the forehand off of the left leg for a green horse, or a left 10m circle or shoulder in on a more advanced horse. Engage the left hind leg and the left side of the jaw will become relaxed.
No, of course not. Asking for flexion itself is not hand riding, it’s doing it for the purpose of getting the horse “lighter in your hand” that is, IMO.
Correct flexion is required for correct bend. But what is helping the horse in this case is not the flexion but the bend in it’s body. Bending in the body helps the horse to relax it’s back and then therefore it’s mind.
Bending figures and basic lateral work help the horse learn to become active with the hind legs while swinging through the back. Which of course improves the contact/connection and makes the horse feel nice in your hands.
But how do you ask for flexion without meeting your standards for “front to back” riding?
It’s important to ride a whole horse.
Supple horse is a bending horse thru the whole body - to bend a horse you need to ride the whole horse, whole spine.
Giving horse is a thru horse when hind end is honestly connected to the front end.
Forward horse is a horse that swings in his spine - in the whole top line.
While strong emphasis should be placed in the engine aka “hind end”, we do need to ride the whole horse and not forget about swinging back and shoulders.
slc2 is right. You MUST have control of the haunches or you will never get complete suppleness in the jaw or neck. That is what the ‘turns’ and lateral work is for. You ‘teach’ the flexions so the horse will know what you want from the rein. But until you can get the haunches by using the rein effects, the flexions will get you little. The two must work together, suppleness of jaw and neck and control of the haunches. A horse that is stiff or hard in the mouth, however they got that way, is ‘stiff’ throughout the body and vice versa. It’s a balance.
