Anyone deal with a chronically mouthy horse?

[Hobbs]

[QUOTE=AMWookey;8570217]
I really really appreciate everyone’s responses.

I remember one day, after everyone getting on my case about giving him the smackdown. The farrier had just finished with him, so his anxiety level (he really isn’t normally an anxious horse, except with the farrier) was higher then normal. He bit me, and got me, so I gave him a loud smack. He turned around and was like “fun game” and bit me again. Another smack. Then he turned around and put his lips on my arm, as if to say “Your move. Now what are you going to do?”

Farrier was on the floor pissing himself laughing. It was at this point that I realized ‘come to jesus’ moments that everyone encouraged with him, were really just “gelding play!” . Especially when I watched him and his best friend do literally the exact same thing. Nibble, nibble, nip, then “I’m not touching you”. My horse would then put his bum in buddys face, taunting him to bite him, then half heartedly kick when he did. Geldings are goofy animals.

So I will continue with positive attention before things that I know lead to the mouthiness, elbow out, and if I can manage it, poke in the gums. Those all feel like responses that have worked, or will work with his personality.

Nothing is ever easy with this horse, but his personality and work ethic more then makes up for it. He is cute as a button too. Not handsome. Just cute as pie.[/QUOTE]

That’s not a “come to Jesus moment” that’s a game. If you have to do it twice in a row, you didn’t do it right the first time. Your horse needs to think he is going to die. When my guy bit me the first time, I hoofed him so hard in the chest he didn’t know what hit him…and he was damn sure it wasn’t a game. Never bit me again.

Your gelding may stick his ass in his buddy’s face to be bitten, but he sure as hell doesn’t do that to the alpha horse in the herd or he wouldn’t have an ass left. Your horse thinks you’re a buddy not an alpha, that is the problem.

[arapaloosa_lady]

Have you ever considered doing any clicker training with him?

You want to reward him for standing quietly and ignoring you. It won’t encourage the mouthiness (if you’re doing it correctly) because he learns that he will only get the reward when he is waiting politely in neutral. The advantage of a clicker compared to other methods of positive reinforcement training is that you get better timing, which is important here. You don’t want any gray area as to where you want his head to be positioned.

[atlatl]

I had a gelding that was mouthy, especially during halter or showmanship classes. I used to practice holding nails sticking out between my fingers so he hit those first. He always went for my hands and this was with never being hand fed by me. Who knows about his previous owner. He eventually stopped it after several years of consistent work on my part.

Good Luck!

[AMWookey]

[QUOTE=Hobbs;8571146]
That’s not a “come to Jesus moment” that’s a game. If you have to do it twice in a row, you didn’t do it right the first time. Your horse needs to think he is going to die. When my guy bit me the first time, I hoofed him so hard in the chest he didn’t know what hit him…and he was damn sure it wasn’t a game. Never bit me again.

Your gelding may stick his ass in his buddy’s face to be bitten, but he sure as hell doesn’t do that to the alpha horse in the herd or he wouldn’t have an ass left. Your horse thinks you’re a buddy not an alpha, that is the problem.[/QUOTE]

Obviously I don’t want to say online that he had a come to jesus moment like that. He has. Trust me. Any other horse would have backed away. You have no idea the number of people who have told me that. I invite them to handle him, and give him their form of a come to jesus moment. It does not work. Every single one of them admits that. If someone has to handle him outside of me, I allow them to treat him like their own horse (short of abuse). I am a very strong woman. After he cracked open my skull, I no longer thought of him as my partner, ‘my pony’ whatever. It became all business, all the time. It didn’t matter.

[AMWookey]

[QUOTE=Doctracy;8571063]
Check for ulcers and look at diet. Too much food will make them mouthy. Having shown paint/QH halter horses and had horses with ulcers. Less rich food,more exercise,more turn out,some alfalfa and ulcer treatment.[/QUOTE]

He lives outside 24/7, on very light feed and free choice hay. He gets ridden or worked minimum 4 days a week. When we asked about ulcers because of his behavior, the vet we had at the time said he didn’t feel he had them. However, it’s something that is relatively easy enough to check, so its definitely something we can consider. Otherwise, his coat is phenomenal, he is slightly overweight as he is an easy keeper, good stools, great appetite, good energy level. He shows no clinical signs.

[AMWookey]

Good update! I grabbed him out of the field today for our lesson after 3 days off because I was traveling for work. Did some positive play before coming in, and no mouthiness.

More positive attention to his face prior to taking off the blanket, elbow out so if he did get mouthy, he smacked into it. He tried it twice, no reaction from me, and then he was over it. He was completely perfect for the rest of the tack up before our ride.

Post ride, I had the elbow out, did positive attention before anything that would trigger his mouthiness. He was perfect. Didn’t even grab at his lead while he was ground tied or his cross ties. Everyone was very impressed. It was a good first start at the positive attention/ignoring the bad playful gelding behavior.

[Alexie]

Just in support of the OP. The come to Jesus routine doesn’t work with mine either, maybe for ten minutes, and it breeds resentment in him, which is a bad thing,I like him and I don’t want him to feel resentful.
He’s a clever horse and responds to smarter handling. I need to pay attention and if I do a little foot moving routine we learned, he’s all interested in what’s coming next, instead of grabbing me for attention.

[stb]

I just want to say - this thread is really talking about two different things here. There is the mouthy horse - like mine, who just wants to mess with everything and put his lips on lots of things, and there are biters. Two different things. While my horse is mouthy he has never bitten, never even offered to nip. If he ever does he’s going to think the world has come to an end. I don’t tolerate that. I also don’t let him put his lips on me, just because it’s rude and asking for trouble.

I guess what I’m saying is that a horse can be mouthy by nature, but that is entirely different from nipping and biting.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=stb;8571504]
I just want to say - this thread is really talking about two different things here. There is the mouthy horse - like mine, who just wants to mess with everything and put his lips on lots of things, and there are biters. Two different things. While my horse is mouthy he has never bitten, never even offered to nip. If he ever does he’s going to think the world has come to an end. I don’t tolerate that. I also don’t let him put his lips on me, just because it’s rude and asking for trouble.

I guess what I’m saying is that a horse can be mouthy by nature, but that is entirely different from nipping and biting.[/QUOTE]

Good point.

IMO and experience regardless of the “type” of mouthy it seems to be much more of a “male” thing. For reasons I explained.

IMO people should be careful how they go about disciplining. Its all about using proper body language. Doing things wrong can and will exacerbate things and or make them head shy.

[artisticgold]

I bought a young stallion sight unseen who was supposed to be really good to handle. Well, he wasn’t. He was a handful and a half. He was Very nippy and nothing worked. I got so frustrated with it and it couldn’t be allowed to go on because I had boarders and people coming and going. Finally, I got a small squirt gun, filled it with mouthwash, and put it up my sleeve. Then I walked by his stall and set him up. Well, when he leaned over to nip me, He got squirted in the nose and had THE most surprised disgusted look on his face, but he didn’t relate it to me as he didn’t see me do anything. It only took one more time and he never tried it again. I started clicker training that horse, and he became the best horse ever, doing trick training, liberty work, free jumping, etc. He was young, smart, energetic, and it took a negative consequence and positive shaping to make him into a wonderful guy. I went on to start him under saddle and ride on the other side of a fence from his mares, and never once had a problem with him. He was probably the most trying horse I had ever had, but he taught me worlds about how to work with that kind of temperament.

[fjordmom]

Have you tried T-touch mouth circles with him?

Our Fjord was/is very oral. He does not bite, but did like to nip/nibble as a game when we got him years ago. My children were young and his “mouthiness” did not cut it for their safetyin or in showmanship. I started doing the T-touches several times a week and he loved it and the attention. (He’s a very personable horse with a great sense of play.) Between that, no hand feeding, firmly backing him out of our space, and just ignoring when he initiated, he has become a very polite boy. When I had to do carrot stretch with him a few years ago as part of a rehab, he was very respectful and not grabby (and yes, he’s food motivated, he’s a Fjord!).

I have just acquired a second Fjord and guess what they have been doing the last few days. Sure enough; nibble, nibble, your it. No your it. Tagged you… the new Fjord’s owner also did a version of T-touches with him and he is likewise and extremely well manner little guy. they can be taught the difference between horse play and do not play with people that way.

It’s totally a game. When he is with me he just had to be taught that he is NOT the initiator of any mouthy games. He is still oral. It’s part of who he is. He’d lick you to death if you let him. He is also very smart and personable. He understands the rules when you make them clear and consistent. That is your key, clear and consistent.

[ChristinaClarLuisa]

My 5-year-old is another mouthy gelding that doesn’t bite…but will nibble anything and loves licking things. Who said theirs liked puffy coats? Lincoln will stand and lick a puffer coat hung on a barn hook for a quarter of an hour, if you let him (damp down, ugh!)
Come to think of it, every.single.german.horse. in the barn likes to lick stuff. They’re all geldings. Human hands are ideal for licking, also bald heads. Sweet horses, no aggression, generally super respectful, but just like big goofy dogs.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=gumtree;8571542]
Good point.

IMO and experience regardless of the “type” of mouthy it seems to be much more of a “male” thing. For reasons I explained.

IMO people should be careful how they go about disciplining. Its all about using proper body language. Doing things wrong can and will exacerbate things and or make them head shy.[/QUOTE]

My horse was pretty head shy when I got him. No surprise, because he is mouthy as can be. He also pushes boundaries for sure. He grabs your zipper pulls, collar of your jacket, even my ponytail once :eek:. For the most part, even when he uses his teeth it is not to hurt you. I see him do this with his best horse buddy. Tugging on his fly sheet. Giving him a big slobbery kiss and just placing his teeth on the horse’s face or neck just to give a little nibble but never to leave a mark.

I mostly try the deflect and ignore tactics. Overall, his handling has improved immensely because he is not so defensive when you do anything near his head anymore.

Sometimes, though, he can get a little carried away with gelding play. If he ever makes teeth contact that elicits a loud OW or curse word, you don’t even have to have a CTJ moment with him, because he has flown backwards 10 feet already and is looking at you with a lowered head and a big OOPS look on his face. He knows when he has Done A Bad Thing. But it doesn’t prevent him from getting right up to the line a little too often. Yes, he sometimes has boundary issues with the alpha horses too and is at risk of getting his teeth kicked in. Not the smartest boy all the time.

[Cathbad]

OP … Given the physical description of your horse, it makes me think that he still has stallion hormones running through his body. And which would contribute to the oral-ness.

You mentioned: shiny coat, and a bit on the heavy side. Stallions have shiny, shiny coats and they can also have a meaty appearance because of the stallion hormones.

Out of curiosity, you could have the vet draw blood to test for testosterone levels.

I have a mouthy horse, and, to me, for horses like this, the horse’s mouth is comparable to our (human) hands. These horses just can’t keep their “hands” to themselves. It’s like little boys being physical with each other all the time – pushing, grabbing, wrestling – and they can’t even walk down the school hall without shoving someone into the lockers, or tripping someone else.

I go with the management approach that most posters here seem to be responding with. I always had one of those hoofpicks with those thick plastic handles at the ready and would just offer it to him to chew and play with while he was being groomed, etc. He never meant harm, was never a biter, and I think it just made him feel good that his way of being was perfectly accepted by those around him.

I thought it was really cute when this other mouthy horse I worked with would greet my hug on the x-ties by wadding the front of my jacket up into his mouth and scrub his teeth back and forth on it. (Made sure my cell phone wasn’t in the pockets.) Or, that they would both grab the zipper tab and zip the zipper up and down. I thought that was really cute, too.

[DressageChic2]

My 4yo stallion is a PITA mouthy love bug. He never bites with intention, or barges, or gets up in your face (or anything that would make me reach for the scissors lol) BUT he loves to just suck and hold stuff in his mouth…you cant leave anything near him and puffy coats and hoods are like catnip!

all we do is make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard: always lead him off a chain so its not so nice in his mouth, make sure he never leans round to mouth on anyone/anything whilst being saddled/wrapped (so firmly but kindly push his head away and praise when he stands straight), cross tie him for grooming and trimming etc so by removing opportunities it becomes the habit NOT to lip and suck and nibble.

if he ever does manage to grab something, i pinch him hard on the neck/flank as that seems to get his attention without leading him down the path of i bite/you bite/i bite/you bite thats SO easy to do with young stallions-they just see that as a game where as a sharp unseen pinch makes them think WTH…

(and to clarify this horse is well bred,papered, will be graded this year, and will be used for breeding. He is a sweet, totally none dominant, easy going, poppet that loves his people. please dont tell me to geld!)

[LittleLegsBigStride]

[QUOTE=AMWookey;8567965]

2. He isn’t hand fed

3. He isn’t allowed in your space and he is typically handled with a chain to reinforce that, but 9 times out of 10 he does NOT need the chain. He does get regular ground work tune ups. Both with me and my coach who is brilliant.

4. Some people will say “just smack him hard/bite him”. Flame suit on - we have tried this. I have tried the elbow on, crop on hand, you bite me, I bite you back. He doesn’t flinch. And then comes back for more.

. Basically he is a giant annoying dog.

When he is mouthy with you, he never has his ears back, never snakes out to bite. He doesn’t get skin and if he does then he reacts like you beat him even if you haven’t reacted yet. Then he is good for a couple days. Don’t misunderstand me, I don’t condone the behavior, I don’t think it’s cute, but there is a difference between ears back snaked out to hurt you and a mouthy turd head like my dude.

I am blessed at my barn to be surrounded by really incredible horse woman with years of experience. 2 great coaches, a great farrier. All with years of working with difficult horses. My dude isn’t easy but he also isn’t a difficult dangerous horse (I will caveat that with anymore. He was at one point) and he is one of the barn favorite. I just wish I didn’t have to warn people that he nips, or that I could get someone to go change his blanket for me while I am away, and not have to worry.
.[/QUOTE]

You have LITERALLY explained my horse. I, and several professionals, think it is just his personality and just how he is. He has never bitten, and only “nips” with his lips (but does also grab/hold leadropes/whips/anything). He doesn’t do it agressively or to be donimant, he’s just annoying.

I honestly got so excited when I read your post, LOL.

My horse has also had a great deal of professional training and is awesome on the APHA circuit. Also barely (if at all) touches you, and then reacts like you beat him.

We’ve tried smacking, pinching, backing, moving away/making his feet move, nothing has worked.

EXCEPT one little trick, I can’t remember rather it was a vet or farrier who told me, but carry around something small and sharp. A nail, golf tee, a coffe stir stick (cut with an angle so it’s sharp), honestly anything REALLY pointy.

Carry it in your right hand (whichever hand is close to the lead/his head) pointing toward him. He will inevitably go to nip you (because you know he has to) and will run into the nail. He will think it came out of nowhere. This is the most useful tip I have EVER received as it is immediate, you didn’t punish him-he punished himself, and since he has no idea where it came from, he will think twice about a sneak nip when you’re busy or can’t otherwise immediately scold him.

This worked amazingly well with my gelding and it will probably take a few days. Wean him off of it and bring it back if after a while he begins to get nippy again. My gelding will also have on and off days where he’s great, then goes nippy again, and then reverts back to good without me having to do anything. It really is just their personalities/mindsets. I got my horse as a 4 YO (he’s 6 now, so I think some of it was annoying babiness and sitting for a year before I got him), but I’ve known him since he was two. He’s honestly just weird and derpy and I wonder if he wasn’t socialized properly as a foal as he’s just WEIRD.

[geddyupgo]

I have a “mouthy” 19 year old who is getting more and more in charge. Mouthing has become nipping. Smacking him has made me his playmate - he comes back for more! Just leading him across the driveway has become an aerobic exercise! At 74, I don’t need this much of a challenge. Read your 2016 posts on clicker training with mouthy horses and just wondering if anyone knows where I could get more information. Thanks for any help you can give. I really appreciate it.

[drafting_dots]

Apologize in advance if this was said, I didn’t read all the comments. My horse has been getting more mouthy than usual, which I attributed it boredom/time off, though I try not to fuss with his mouth or hand feed him treats. He has a cute giant chin that’s a little hard not to play with, and turns out the barn help feeds him treats and plays with his mouth, so if you have people around other than your trainers it might help to put up a sign so everyone knows not to instigate!

[ChestnutArabianMare]

I realize this is an old thread, but that describes my mare to a T. She’s never learned zippers (and I have no intention of letting her), but she knows how to open stall latches, slide open sliding doors and has been caught messing with gate latches. She also likes to sniff hair/faces/ears (no mouthing), has taken off my hat before, chew on whip handles, chew on cross ties, and try to chew on boots/stirrups if you flex her head around while you’re mounted (for that one, I bumped her in the nose and she gave up quickly). We’ve compromised at, “You are allowed to sniff and lip gently, but if you are going to be a pushy jerk about it, it’s time to move your feet and back out of my space.” She’s a very smart critter and it’s worked well for her. The one time she nipped with her teeth, we had a very short Come to Jesus session involving lots of moving her feet quickly and she never tried it again.

[AMWookey]

Funny that this thread comes up again. I will re-iterate that he was never mouthy in an “oh that’s cute” way where he likes to hold onto things, not was he ever outright pin your ears and attack you nasty. Nope you will just be doing up his blanket or picking his feet and he would grab a little.

I would like to say 2 years later that he is better but… he isn’t. He has been handled by multiple pro’s and brilliant horsepeople and I have a bruise that has just healed. He has been checked out toe to tail to see if it’s a pain or ulcer thing, it’s not, but we have him on preventative ulcer meds and probiotics “just in case”.

he has had the come to jesus moments, the respect my space moments, the positive play moments. The only thing that works is work. The more he learns in the ring, the more solid and mentally taking training rides he has, the happier of a horse he is, and the less he nibbles. Difficult when you and your spouse who also rides him, are military, but we moved him to a show barn, and he gets two to three training rides a week when our schedules don’t permit us to drive the hour and a half to ride. People question us for having him so far away, but he is happy, less stressed and being a good citizen so it works!