Anyone do no turnout, like never ever...

[Arelle]

I would prefer 24/7 turn out for most of my horses, but they don’t always agree with me.

I’ve got a couple that grew up with me at western pleasure barns like described in this thread. Where they were out of their stalls several hours daily, but it wasn’t at their leisure. They were out and about and moving. Even now, at 10 and 12, when I turn them out and it gets too hot/buggy/starts lightly raining – they run the fence line and work each other into a lather. If they’re turned out separately and any of the above happens, it’s 10x worse. I’ve seen them seriously consider attempting to jump the fence.

I’ve got a couple of older mares who won’t lay down and really sleep unless they’re in their deeply bedded stalls. Never mind that they have pasture, big soft round bales, etc - they want the padded stall and big piles of shavings.

My personal horses stay inside during the day (Texas, summer, bald faced paints that burn), and go out at night. And then it swaps in winter when it’s cold.

I’ve seen horses that do okay with “no turnout like never ever”. It’s usually quieter breeds that go along with it better. And, again, when I’ve seen it - they go out on the walker and then they’re ridden and then they’re asked to stand and be patient. I don’t think it’s a best practice, but if the option is that or more barns close up shop, I’ll take stalled horses any day. I’m tired of losing people to the industry because things aren’t “perfect”. Perfect is the enemy of good.

[Bluey]

@tabula rashah

I hardly consider that a personal dig. I just wonder why you constantly argue against the actual inherent nature of horses. Yes each horse is an individual and there always some special cases, but you can’t just change the facts that horses are herd animals who are meant to be moving. Just because we can do something doesn’t mean that we should. Dogs can live happy, full lives on vegetarian diets- should we be doing that?

“The actual inherent nature of horses” according to whom?

I tend to go by what the horses themselves show us, not what I think they want or need.

We will just have to agree to disagree, that’s all.

[GoodTimes]

I think an important point is that virtually every stall scenario is the same. But there is such a range of turnout options and amenities.
At the end of the day I think that 99% of horses would prefer 24/7 turnout with a buddy or at least in view of other horses, with 24/7 forage, and shelter that allows them to get out of the weather or bugs. It may take tweaking to make each horse happy, but it’s proven to be healthier physically and emotionally.
On the other side of the spectrum, far more horses do not do well being stalled for prolonged periods. Vices, ulcers, spookiness, depression.

Without doing bloodwork on every horse you can only guess at their stress levels. Last week I participated in a webinar with a local vet. She referenced several studies that measured cortisol levels in a variety of horses. They were surprised to see that several of the horses who seemed fine (quiet, no vices, etc), actually had elevated levels while stalled. The sample size was small, but they warned that there is probably a rather large subset of the population that is so stoic they will not outwardly show signs of stress.

This vet said that 10-20 years ago herself and most of her colleagues focused so much on treating symptoms and diseases. She said that now they put so much more focus on educating clients on managing horses to be horses. She said that among their existing clients they seem to be having fewer ulcer and colic incidents, and fewer joint injections at the facilities with longer turnout options.

Personally, I’ve got one that lives out 24/7. He’s my A/O hunter. He cribs inside, but not outside, he doesn’t crib at shows. I’ve got two that are turned out 12+ hours for convenience (one is in training, the other is part boarded).
When all three horses are at home instead of boarded, they all live out 24/7. We have security cameras and can see that they develop different routines at different times of the year based on weather and bugs. But even on the worst days they never spend more than a few hours hiding in their sheds.

[tabula_rashah]

@Bluey

“The actual inherent nature of horses” according to whom?

I tend to go by what the horses themselves show us, not what I think they want or need.

We will just have to agree to disagree, that’s all.

Um dude, that would be biology? You’re disagreeing with biology.

[GoodTimes]

@Bluey

“The actual inherent nature of horses” according to whom?

Evolution?

Heck, there are zoo animals who get more exercise, enrichment, and mental stimulation than some of these “pampered” horses.

[Bluey]

@tabula rashah

Um dude, that would be biology? You’re disagreeing with biology.

That means what?

Here, we have two stalls, for special needs.
In many years, we have yet to use them.
They have yet to have a horse in them.
Our horses just have been most contented outside.
Tens of broodmares and foals, stallions, horses in training, competition horses.
We have, is what fits here, kept them outside.
When we had a running stable, we kept them in a stall so they learned track routine.
Then we turned them out and brought them in just to ride, then back out.
In the 12 years we bred, trained and ran horses in different tracks, we were lucky not to have not one shin-buck or start cribbing, weaving or such.
A very few horses we claimed or were brought to us were, just not any we raised and trained.

When going to races or shows, then they were stalled and were fine there also.
Why not, just because some think horses should not be in stalls?
If one was not, you bet we would do what it took to change their situation.
Is that “against the actual inherent nature of horses”?

May be picking on the wrong person, I think.

[GoodTimes]

@Bluey on the first page you describe keeping horses stalled and claim very few if any have vices.
Then you disagree with a statement about turnout.
Yet you yourself now keep horses outside for the majority.
So in reality you acknowledge that horses generally do better with increased turnout, yet you feel the need to “argue” about it. Pointing out the need to manage each horse as an individual, which nearly everyone on the thread has also said.

[tabula_rashah]

@Bluey literally no one has said horses should never be kept in stalls or there are some cases horses would need to be stalled 24/7. Literally no one.

Not that you ever give a straight answer but… do you really think as a species that horses aren’t grazing, herd animals?

[Bluey]

@GoodTimes

@Bluey on the first page you describe keeping horses stalled and claim very few if any have vices.
Then you disagree with a statement about turnout.
Yet you yourself now keep horses outside for the majority.
So in reality you acknowledge that horses generally do better with increased turnout, yet you feel the need to “argue” about it. Pointing out the need to manage each horse as an individual, which nearly everyone on the thread has also said.

I was talking about horses in the Europe I grew up in being, if older and in use, in riding centers, stabled.

Here, for half a century now, not so, different places, different management.

Horses will tell you, if you learn to really pay attention, when they are ok and when stressed.
As a caretaker, that is what you do, learn to listen and take care of them as they need.

Rules of thumb about how to manage them are fine.
Disregarding that those should always be secondary to taking care of each horse as it needs, in my opinion, for what that is worth, is questionable, so I question it.

Others disagree and that is fine.

[S1969]

@Bluey

Rules of thumb about how to manage them are fine.
Disregarding that those should always be secondary to taking care of each horse as it needs, in my opinion, for what that is worth, is questionable, so I question it.

I think in general, the rule of thumb is that horses need turnout.

Can they live without it? Yes. But the fact that they “don’t complain” doesn’t mean it’s not bad for them to live in a stall.

[Bluey]

@S1969

I think in general, the rule of thumb is that horses need turnout.

Can they live without it? Yes. But the fact that they “don’t complain” doesn’t mean it’s not bad for them to live in a stall.

Horses in riding centers were taken out several times a day, went on trail rides, had a full busy life, more than horses turned out to stand around somewhere for hours in turnout.

I still think either way can be fine.

It is how you manage and that it fits the horses you have, if how we manage is appropriate or not.

[GoodTimes]

There is a big difference between a horse coping with a living situation, and a horse thriving in a living situation.
Difficult to determine which situation a horse will thrive in if they are never given options.

Luckily, with research we are gaining more insight into the causes of vices and stress related ailments. Hopefully some barns and owners will take the opportunity to learn instead of doing things a certain way because they’ve always been done that way.

[kande04]

@lenapesadie

I was told by a former trainer, that in Germany it wasn’t uncommon for competition horses to live in stalls 24/7.

The couple I knew who boarded lots of horses at a barn with almost no turnout were from The Netherlands, and it was as if they never read a book or updated what they believed when they came to the US. So 40 years later they were still doing things that the rest of the horse world had either rejected or improved upon decades earlier.

They kept a WB stallion in a foaling stall practically his whole life, which I think was because they only used him for breeding and it was more convenient to keep him confined than to build a safe turnout for him?

To be fair, the stalls were cleaned and well bedded every day and the horses got plenty of hay, but if the owners didn’t come and ride them or turn them out for exercise they just stood in their stalls (and AFAIK, still do).

[kande04]

@GoodTimes

But even on the worst days they never spend more than a few hours hiding in their sheds.

Interesting, because in the summer when the flies are active mine spend way more than a few hours a day hiding from the flies in their sheds. In fact, if they didn’t have to go out to eat I’m pretty sure some of them would spend a lot more time inside.

We have good pasture so it doesn’t take them long to get enough grass, and then right back inside they go!

[Bluey]

@kande04

The couple I knew who boarded lots of horses at a barn with almost no turnout were from The Netherlands, and it was as if they never read a book or updated what they believed when they came to the US. So 40 years later they were still doing things that the rest of the horse world had either rejected or improved upon decades earlier.

They kept a WB stallion in a foaling stall practically his whole life, which I think was because they only used him for breeding and it was more convenient to keep him confined than to build a safe turnout for him?

To be fair, the stalls were cleaned and well bedded every day and the horses got plenty of hay, but if the owners didn’t come and ride them or turn them out for exercise they just stood in their stalls (and AFAIK, still do).

Bad management is bad, if out in a pasture or shut in a stall.

That some people never learn, keep doing the same, well, that is never good management, no matter what you manage.
Not fair to paint all from one bad example.
We could do that all day long and still not be right.

[enjoytheride]

I think the people that say horses don’t like turnout haven’t really looked at the situation. My barn got a mare in who had never been turned out from birth. She was born at a boarding barn where you had to pay extra for turnout and do it yourself and the owner only got out once a week.

When she came to my old barn there wasn’t an option for partial day turnout or private paddocks. I would come out after work and bring her in for the first month. She did not have any horse friends, did not know how to horse, and walked the fence so much that she dropped a ton of weight. In her stall she’d weave and spin.

It took maybe 3 months and she learned to love turnout. Eventually we sold her to a family that kept her out 24/7 and said that she loved life.

My horses go out all day, every day. If the weather is too hot or cold they will stand in the arena for hours and then go back out. My sensitive TB will often come in by himself to stand in the shade. I don’t think any of them are really asking to come back in. They just need the right shelter to be kept out.

[Bluey]

@enjoytheride

I think the people that say horses don’t like turnout haven’t really looked at the situation. My barn got a mare in who had never been turned out from birth. She was born at a boarding barn where you had to pay extra for turnout and do it yourself and the owner only got out once a week.

When she came to my old barn there wasn’t an option for partial day turnout or private paddocks. I would come out after work and bring her in for the first month. She did not have any horse friends, did not know how to horse, and walked the fence so much that she dropped a ton of weight. In her stall she’d weave and spin.

It took maybe 3 months and she learned to love turnout. Eventually we sold her to a family that kept her out 24/7 and said that she loved life.

My horses go out all day, every day. If the weather is too hot or cold they will stand in the arena for hours and then go back out. My sensitive TB will often come in by himself to stand in the shade. I don’t think any of them are really asking to come back in. They just need the right shelter to be kept out.

Right, you know your horses and provide what they need, good for you, is how that is supposed to work.

Too bad about that filly, I wish people didn’t just haphazardly raised foals, but leave that to breeding farms set up for that.
Not fair to the horses that grow up being a bad fit for what their lives will be once grown and have to stress so unnecessarily to try to make it, best they can.

[myhorsefaith]

I own a 17 yr old horse who came from turnout non-believers, he was a show horse and most of the people in that world do little if any turn out to prevent injury, not wanting to mess up show-shoeing, etc. I’ve heard all their reasons. This horse grew up in that world, and then was moved to a barn, prior to my ownership, with small gravel paddock turnout, and the previous owners claimed he “failed” turnout by being naughty stirring up the other horses and thus went back to being stalled only. When I bought him, I kept him at that barn for a couple months to get to know him a little (and also to wait for a stall to open up where my other horses were boarded). I was told he wasn’t allowed to have turnout even if I paid for it. They did let boarders turn out in their rather large arena though, so he did get that and spent about 10 minutes running up and down and then met me in the middle and declared himself “done”.

Eventually a stall opened up at the other barn, and I had worked out a plan with the BO to help acclimate my new horse to turn out in a paddock - it was carefully selected and we had all the details covered. We moved him in the evening, and the next morning I got a text about how the turnout person couldn’t get my horse to go through the gate into the paddock, so the BO told her to bring him in and she’d personally do it when she got back to the farm. The next text was a picture of my horse in said paddock with his eyes bugged out because a bird landed on him. Nature man, it can be cruel…lol. he actually was fine but the look on his face was one to remember.

4 years later, not gonna lie, we are still working through some lingering turnout issues, but he is mostly ok, and most days too. He has no problem going out (now demands it) and staying out but his little turkey timer goes off - it used to be around noon and now its around 3-4, and a lot of the time he keeps his cool all the way up until its normal turn-in time. And he can only do certain paddocks/pastures with certain horses. Certain order for which they have to go out, and come in (he absolutely cannot be last). And no turnout into pastures with gates down hill, he’ll run and do sliding stops at the gate when he decides he needs to come in, causing injury to himself (learned that one the hard way). That said, he does love going out, and he loves being able to socialize- up until the time he doesn’t on his bad days. Also, if he sees a person, he will come flying to the gate to be brought in which will sometimes cause him to become very upset about it not happening - that has also dramatically decreased but you never know when it’ll happen with him. The one positive here is that I have zero problem with “catching” him, LOL.

[enjoytheride]

@Bluey

“The actual inherent nature of horses” according to whom?

I tend to go by what the horses themselves show us, not what I think they want or need.

We will just have to agree to disagree, that’s all.

Horses are made to be turned out, and to cover miles finding good grazing. That’s their inherent nature and it’s undeniable. That they can adapt to confined living is evident, although clearly some don’t.

[sherian]

my horses are stabled at night, out during the day. I had to laugh a while ago when after listening to an acquaintance go on at some length about how horses shouldn’t be stabled at all because “mustangs are fine without barns” an article about the wild Prezwelski horses living in the Cherynoble exclusion zone doing well and being habitual users of the abandoned buildings as shelter from weather and flies. Do whatever works for your environment and horses.