Anyone do no turnout, like never ever...

[4horses]

My horses are on dry lots most of the year. But I’m diligent about getting them lots of exercise. My old mare gets full turnout because she needs to be kept moving. My horses may not be thrilled on dry lots, but they have plenty of hay, and no vices. The ability to move freely (even on a dry lot) is the key aspect and that is where most barns fail.

Keeping a horse stalled is the equivalent of living in a jail cell or tiny bathroom. It’s okay for limited periods or if a horse is worked hard enough to be truly tired.

I knew one barn that kept their horses stalled at all times, minus 15 minutes once a week. They had terrible rates of colic.

[angelssix]

I certainly wouldn’t do it, but I did see a barn that had no turnout. It was an Arabian barn. The horses were always covered in something, to keep hair from growing, lights always on…it was bad. The place reeked of ammonia. I would never run a barn like that. Not for all the money in the world.

[Calvincrowe]

Just like not all horses can be taught to not spook, and not all horses can be successfully ridden in a plain snaffle, not all horses can be turned out 24/7. Horses are made to move and graze and rest during the day. But…horses are individuals and their personal requirements are different.

While I would never tolerate a facility or situation where my horse was stalled and only hand walked or out for less than an hour a day, I can see why that’s done to top competition horses. For my own horses here, that I wrote of earlier, my intolerant boy is OUT 24/7, but chooses his shed/overhang or stall for much of that time. By choice. If not given that choice he becomes quite frantic. He is heat and bug intolerant and I pay attention to that for his own welfare. My own competition horse is out roughly 6 hours a day at her current barn in a large paddock, and worked 5 days a week in some form. The nature of the facility dictates this. Is it “ideal”? Probably not to many of you, but it works for her and me. She’s happy and healthy. Would she love to be knee deep in grass all day, roaming with a herd? Maybe or maybe not. My two retired horses have that, but Cushings and IR deny that to them both.

It’s important to not try a one-size-fits-all scenario without all the facts.

[Mersidoats]

I know of one - a high-dollar competition horse (international level) who had a serious injury a few years ago. He gets no turnout. He is worked 5-6 days a week and gets hand-grazed. As far as I can see, he copes with it as well as he can. He’s been a competition horse all his life. He looks out his stall window, politely hand-grazes, is a super pro everywhere he goes. He’s not my horse, and that’s not the way I would manage my horse, but that is his life.

We have one here that gets a few hours turnout - he came here with very little turnout experience. He seems to like it. It took him a while to learn to relax and graze. He still spend most of his time walking the fenceline, holding court under his tree, and calling to mares. He is a stallion, and he is vigilant of his surroundings. And he hates bugs. He lets us know when he wants in.

[quietann]

@lenapesadie

My horse gets anxious in his turn out towards the end of the day. It isn’t because he doesn’t like turn out. It’s because he wants his grain, which is fed in his stall after turn in.

That’s my mare, basically. She’s turned out between 7 and 8 every** morning, but by 2:30 or 3:00, she is Done and wants to come in.

She grew up living out 24/7 with only trees for shelter, but that was in a big herd with not much turnover. She is super anxious about other horses getting near her food, and learned to appreciate individual turnout with over-the-fence neighbors very quickly. I did have her in a 24/7 paddock with a shed for a few years, but it was individual with just one other horse in the next paddock over. She did not do well in that situation.

I still feel badly for horses that get no turnout, especially if turnout is available but they’ve been kept in stalls for so long that they can’t deal with it.

** current barn will not turn out in heavy rain or a blizzard. And they must be barefoot or have winter shoes to go out if the ground is icy or snowy

[GoTeke]

@Training Cupid

Many racehorses go without turnout during the season. I imagine other working horses, like carriage horses in the city, probably likewise.

the carriage horses used in the city where my parents live have a wonderful life. They get brought in from a rural area about a 40 minute drive away from their downtown starting point. They do not work a full day, are brought back to the farm every day for turn out, they also get days off during the week at their home farm. I know that for a fact as I have friends that worked for the companies.
There are lots of people here that think they have a horrible life because all they see is part of the daily life this horse has. They love their work.

[Training_Cupid]

@GoTeke

the carriage horses used in the city where my parents live have a wonderful life. They get brought in from a rural area about a 40 minute drive away from their downtown starting point. They do not work a full day, are brought back to the farm every day for turn out, they also get days off during the week at their home farm. I know that for a fact as I have friends that worked for the companies.
There are lots of people here that think they have a horrible life because all they see is part of the daily life this horse has. They love their work.

Sorry I really didn’t mean to imply that carriage horses have a horrible life, I was just speculating that in some places I could envision they don’t have access to daily turnout. (I’m aware of the controversy, but I do not think the industry is inherently bad. I’m sure there are bad actors who don’t take proper care of their horses, like in any discipline, but I think it could be done in a manner that is fair to the horse.) My assumption was that they may not have daily turnout, but periodically go on a few weeks pasture vacation. But maybe that’s just based on Black Beauty? :o

[Willesdon]

Big bay horse doesn’t want to go back into his stable, doesn’t want to be lead in a direction away from turnout, resists, turns his head towards the pasture, doesn’t wish to step through the door, tries to step back, is grumpy being untacked once inside. Six months later, big bay horse, all tacked up, steps up to the door, sees the rain and reverses rapidly to the back of the stable and stands with hooves planted and an expression that clearly says “Are you totally crazy? It’s cold and wet out there!” Listen to your horse: he has opinions about where he lives too.

[ThatBayHorse]

I cannot imagine not turning a horse out. I worked at a big barn in college where most of the expensive boarder horses got half day turnout, but the lesson horses (most anyway), went out overnight. I’m crazy about my turnout… prefer my horses to be out 24/7 with a run-in, but will also do 12/12 (or whatever hours), either turnout during day or night depending on the weather. I ride regularly, but it’s not enough. They are sooo much healthier with a lot of turnout- not as much stiffness/joint issues, ulcers, colics, etc. If I lived in a city where this wasn’t an option, I either wouldn’t have a horse or keep my horse however many hours away until I could achieve turnout. While dry lots are not perfect, its better for horses to be turned out with hay and a buddy to have a few hours to themselves.

While I know many horses who can be “managed” without turnout, I personally think its cruel and would never choose to keep my horse that way. I know a girl who kept her horse in a stall 24/7 starting from when it was a foal. Now the horse is 10 and can’t go out because it paces and freaks out because its never been outside. The horse is in very poor muscle condition (just fat) and I think that must be a miserable experience.

[Bluey]

The trouble with those bad examples given is, if we are honest, we can find those every place, under any management.

Plenty of horses in the SW live outside 24/7, are only ridden in playdays or trail rides on the weekends, hard, when the owners get around to come to ride.
Those horses are out of shape, not legged up and fit to go spend the weekend competing or on the trail for hours, but that is how they live in the so perfect 24/7 pasture lives, where they in reality stand around most of the long days.
There is way more to how we manage our horses well, or that is lacking.

I put our riding center/s school horses that rarely had turnout at all, but were giving several lessons a day, being groomed and hand grazed and worked with, trail ridden, kept healthy and fit for the job they did, against so many private horses that are lucky to get maybe one hour some/many days a week, when the owner has time.
In the many years an uncountable many horses, we had ONE light colic, didn’t even need a vet.
It was so rare, we talked about colic for days afterwards.

When I came to the US, seems that colic is very prevalent.
Most stables of all kinds have colics happen every so often, in stalls, with turnout, 24/7 turnout, they all do.
Still have not figured why the difference.

Folks, it really is best not to be so sanguine and dismissive of those that do things differently than we do, just because they are different.
We may just not really know better, those being their horses, not ours.

When there is true abuse, there is no question no matter what you think, if in a stall or pasture.
If horses are doing fine, at least consider, "different strokes … " may just apply.

Given whatever conditions we have, what is important is to make it work for the horses, with the right management for those conditions and each individual horse, even if it is not how we would manage.

[S1969]

@Bluey

Folks, it really is best not to be so sanguine and dismissive of those that do things differently than we do, just because they are different.
We may just not really know better, those being their horses, not ours.

Given whatever conditions we have, what is important is to make it work for the horses, with the right management for those conditions and each individual horse, even if it is not how we would manage.

No, I can have a different opinion.

A lot of barns don’t turn horses out because it requires work and maintenance. Staff to bring them in and out, filling of water tanks outside, throwing hay outside, using fly spray, blankets in cool weather, etc. And then the grounds maintenance costs go up to fix turnout areas, control mud, fix fences, etc.

They aren’t necessarily doing what is best for the horses, but for their businesses. That is their decision, and it can have an explanation, but it’s very often not abou tthe right management for each individual horse.

[Bluey]

@S1969

No, I can have a different opinion.

A lot of barns don’t turn horses out because it requires work and maintenance. Staff to bring them in and out, filling of water tanks outside, throwing hay outside, using fly spray, blankets in cool weather, etc. And then the grounds maintenance costs go up to fix turnout areas, control mud, fix fences, etc.

They aren’t necessarily doing what is best for the horses, but for their businesses. That is their decision, and it can have an explanation, but it’s very often not abou tthe right management for each individual horse.

I hear you, more examples of management maybe not up to par, happens any place, stalled or pastured.
We can keep bringing up examples, we know those are out there.

The reality is, proper management does include stalled also, even if some keep insisting it can’t, that is my point.

[peedin]

My mare is a 24 hour a day cribber. She’s outside with a herd of about 12 during the day, in a stall at night. Yesterday the other girls were grazing on the new grass; she was cribbing on the pasture fence. However, if she is kept in while the others go out, she gets hysterical. Three weeks ago she got 20 stitches in her face because she ripped it open because she was accidentally left in. Does she want to be out? Only to be near her herd. Is she friends with any of her pasture mates? No. Does she graze while outside? Sometimes. Is she happy being in? Obviously not. She’s outside at night during the summer in addition to day time turnout. What does she do? Cribs on the fence. Talk about special management.

[GoodTimes]

@Bluey

I hear you, more examples of management maybe not up to par, happens any place, stalled or pastured.
We can keep bringing up examples, we know those are out there.

The reality is, proper management does include stalled also, even if some keep insisting it can’t, that is my point.

But no said that good management can not include stalls. You keep bringing up management as if all things equal that the majority of horses would be just as happy and healthy in a stall as turned out. Biology, science, research, etc has shown that to not be true. Of course there will be exceptions, no one is denying that.
But most horses will be happier and healthier with more turnout, not less.

[polkadotedpony]

@GoodTimes

But no said that good management can not include stalls. You keep bringing up management as if all things equal that the majority of horses would be just as happy and healthy in a stall as turned out. Biology, science, research, etc has shown that to not be true. Of course there will be exceptions, no one is denying that.
But most horses will be happier and healthier with more turnout, not less.

Yeah I tend to be of this mindset too. I’m sure we have to some degree selectively bred horses that tolerate stalls better than their wild forefathers would have. And regarding Bluey’s position, I definitely know some horses that are just done with turnout after a few hours, which is fine and what they want or how they’ve been socialized. I just don’t really buy that the only horses in stalls 24/7 that aren’t doing well are being grossly mismanaged. In fact I think a lot of horses look like they are “fine” or “happy” but the reality is they are not living their best lives.
I see owners come out multiple times a day, put a ton of thought into walker schedules, feed, vet, training regimens toys, etc- they clearly care and are putting a ton of work into their horses. But many of these horses have minor issues like being quite reactive/hot under saddle, tooth grinding and stocking up behind, which are treated as “quirks” when in reality those things would probably be helped by having a more natural lifestyle moving around and mentally unwinding outside.

[xeroxchick]

@Goforward

Not all horses love turnout. I’ve got 8 horses in my barn right now and 3 of them only tolerate a few hours a day outdoors.
It’s not cruel to keep them indoors if that’s where they want to be.

I see it as a matter of what they are used to. Horses are built to be moving around, letting those frogs expand and contract to help pump blood up those thin legs to that thick body, and their necks are meant to be down and grazing for many hours a day. If they have a good pasture, pals, shade/shelter, they are much healthier. Of course, we have bred them into forms that are not what they would have in nature, and they are tremendously adaptable creatures of habit. I’m sure that horses used to it don’t mind being in 24/7, and we certainly know they can be injured in a pasture, but overall, turn out is closer to what keeps them healthy. Plus a lot easier for us if we are the caregivers.
I will say, very tired of my mother always talking about what is “natural.” It’s not natural for horses to be ridden or to not be hunted.

[Goforward]

In my situation, as a dressage trainer and facility owner, there’s very little chance that any of my clients are going to want their $70k + imported horse turned out 24/7 in a herd. Individual turnout is just the reality of being a competition horse.
If anyone here has a very expensive competition horse that lives out in a herd, I would love to hear about how you deal with the risk of injury.

[GoodTimes]

@Goforward

In my situation, as a dressage trainer and facility owner, there’s very little chance that any of my clients are going to want their $70k + imported horse turned out 24/7 in a herd. Individual turnout is just the reality of being a competition horse.
If anyone here has a very expensive competition horse that lives out in a herd, I would love to hear about how you deal with the risk of injury.

My A circuit A/O hunter lives out 24/7 in a herd. He cribs inside so I would consider his level of risk lower outside vs inside. He might not be 70k+, but mid 5 figures.
When I worked as a BM at an A circuit H/J barn we only had a handful of horses on individual turnout (two studs, a few with back shoes, and a blanket destroyer). The rest went out in groups of 2-4. We did our best to accommodate owners, but realistically we wouldn’t have had the staff or turnout if everyone wanted individual turnout.

[S1969]

@Goforward

In my situation, as a dressage trainer and facility owner, there’s very little chance that any of my clients are going to want their $70k + imported horse turned out 24/7 in a herd. Individual turnout is just the reality of being a competition horse.
If anyone here has a very expensive competition horse that lives out in a herd, I would love to hear about how you deal with the risk of injury.

My horses are not expensive. But they very rarely do silly things in turnout because they are turned out all the time. So, I think this is a self-perpetuating relationship. The less turnout a horse gets, the more likely they will go into turnout and do something stupid because it’s new.

Occasionally, they get the sillies and buck a few times. But they can do that in individual turnout as well. Sometimes they will run, but again, can also do that in individual turnout. The size of the turnout is more the defining factor. I have mine on a sacrifice pasture about 1.5 acres right now. They won’t get out on the bigger pasture with good grass for at least another month, but when they do, they will gallop a lap or two. Maybe the first 2-3 times they get to use it. The ones that like to run (e.g. my TB mare) do it more than the ones that don’t (my WB mare). She would run even if it was just her, I think, if given enough space.

In moderate sized turnouts and well-matched pasture company, I think most horses would be just as safe as being alone.

[Mersidoats]

@xeroxchick

I see it as a matter of what they are used to. Horses are built to be moving around, letting those frogs expand and contract to help pump blood up those thin legs to that thick body, and their necks are meant to be down and grazing for many hours a day. If they have a good pasture, pals, shade/shelter, they are much healthier. Of course, we have bred them into forms that are not what they would have in nature, and they are tremendously adaptable creatures of habit. I’m sure that horses used to it don’t mind being in 24/7, and we certainly know they can be injured in a pasture, but overall, turn out is closer to what keeps them healthy. Plus a lot easier for us if we are the caregivers.
I will say, very tired of my mother always talking about what is “natural.” It’s not natural for horses to be ridden or to not be hunted.

This makes sense to me. Why would I leave the neurotic stud out all day if he’s miserable? No fans to blow the bugs off. They bite and make him itch and he loses his mind. The stress of having to monitor “his herd.” It’s hot and he was anhydrotic. He gets a booboo and it takes 6 fricken months to heal because he irritates it and picks at it and is possibly immune-compromised and therefore a non-healer. And that makes him miserable. He only likes certain hay. He picks at the grass. He needs an enormous quantity of food to keep him from dropping weight at a hint of stress or a slightly too long ride.

He’s probably not meant to live in FL, but here he is. He might do a lot better if he lived in north Germany or Great Britain. But he lives here, and so he’s managed in such a way to keep him sane and comfortable. He would DIE if he was in the wild. And that’s not his fault. He was bred this way. He was bred for fabulous gaits, trainability, beauty, and human-oriented personality. He was not bred to be tough and hardy. Competition horses aren’t “natural” - they are man-made.