Totally agree. As long as a “herd” whether that’s two horses or 10 horses, has enough space/food/shelter there is very little fighting or playing if they’re out a lot. Decreasing turnout or individual turnout will never stop a horse from running outside.
If you find two horses play a little too hard together than maybe they shouldn’t be turned out together.
And for pete’s sake, if you don’t want cuts or scratches on your horse, DO NOT turn them out in a group with a halter on. Halter tag is probably the number one reason for blemishes in group turnout.
At our barn roughly half the horses are out 24/7, the other half are out for 12+ hours. The only running that usually happens is during turn in. The horses that are stalled get all wound up and excited to come in for dinner. The ones that know they’re staying out just stand and watch, or continue eating.
I had a 1.20m jumper in on consignment a little while back, mid-fives. When he lived at home, he was turned out 24/7 in a small herd of 4-5 geldings. Here at my farm on consignment, he was out 20/7 with one buddy only because that’s just how my farm is set up, I don’t have huge pastures and I only have 6-8 horses at a time.
I agree 100% with @S1969 that it’s a self-perpetuating relationship. Horses that don’t get turned out much act like idiots when they get put out, so their owners/trainers/managers put them out less and less to reduce the risk of injury. But IME, very few horses that are out 24/7 act like idiots much of the time, if at all, while out. As far as being with a herd or one or two pasture-mates, as long as they are well-matched and with sufficient space, I don’t see that there’s a greater risk for the horse to be injured than when they’re alone. Alone they can still run, spin, slide, run through a fence, take a bad step, all of that. Personally, If I ever won the lottery and could afford a $70k horse, I’d still be putting it outside in a small group or herd 24/7.
Mares are also made to be pregnant or nursing all the time, and stallions are made to be taking care of stallion business all the time, so the argument that horses are made to do this and that doesn’t always apply to domestic horses.
From the late 70’s to early 90’s I boarded in a very urban area. We had 2 choices in boarding 12x12 box stalls or 12x24 stall with attached run. There was no land for turnout.
We had 2 arenas, round pens and there was eventually a hot walker, but only trainers used them usually.
Horses got out when the owner took them out and the BO would put some horses out in the arena if the owners were the kind who rarely showed up.
We had about every type of rider from trail to die hard show people and all the horses seemed to do fine. I rode or got my horses out 6 days a week (religiously) so they were happy and well adjusted. That is just the way it was.
I never stall my horses since I left there , as I do think it is better they can be at least in a large dry lot at minimum.
Well, that is a good example, do what WE think is best, period, because we know best.
Well, that is what I am talking about.
We should NOT be that sure when it comes to what is best for any one of our horses when it comes to how to manage their lives.
Live long enough and have enough horses to care for and horses will teach you that one size really doesn’t fit all.
Why insist to keep a horse with others if it is clearly not best?
We did just that, until a horse was injured and just not getting better and, no matter what we tried, he was always fine with any other horses, as he was declining he could not keep up.
It was not right for him any more to be in that situation.
You would not know, he seemed fine, but reflecting back, he was being stoic and trying and not really fine any more.
We were monitoring the situation and made the necessary changes, but wish we had maybe done so before, we too thought he wanted and needed to be out with others, is how humans think.
I think he was glad to be by himself and have peace in to us a not best situation for him after all the years he was fine with his friends.
Let the horse tell you.
What is best for any horse at any time is fluid, will change.
Even the best of horse pals one day will have a difference we humans can’t figure and after that not get along any more.
We then need to do something else, not let them live stressed because we think that is how horse lives should be, we think we know best.
Let the horses tell you, try not to be so sure and miss doing our best by our horses by insisting on going by some human principle we choose to believe.
Each one of us has to figure that out for ourselves.
For some, that they will only do things one way as to them that is best is important.
For others, that we are not so set in our ways is important.
Questions asked are answered as it pertains to the question. Just because someone doesn’t provide a page-long asterix with their post saying “except in this scenario, or that, or the other”, that doesn’t mean you need to read into it and add things that aren’t there. My statement that you decided to “bold” was answering the question of if I’d still turn out a horse that cost me $70k with other horses. Yes. I would. That’s it. No more, no less. The millions of scenarios that might require the horse to be stalled at some point are not needed to answer the question of the price tag factor.
I never said I wouldn’t make accommodations for a horse that needed it.
Making sure pasture buddies are well-matched includes changing them when needed if issues arise, as the situation is no longer well-matched.
No one on this discussion has said stalls themselves are inherently evil and any minute of stall use is cruel. What was stated as cruel is zero turnout, ever (outside of medical issues). I stand by that, regardless of what the amount or type of turnout looks like based on special needs the horse (or horse owner) might have. Living in a 50’x50’ dirt lot, while maybe not “ideal,” is still loads better than in a 12’x12’ stall. I didn’t say all horses must be in a 10 acre field with lush thick grass and ten pasture-mates.
IMO, fear of injury is not a good reason to keep a horse cooped up in a stall 24/7, even if you spent a buttload of money on the horse. A horse is still a horse. It doesn’t know how much it cost. It has certain requirements for it to be healthiest, physically and mentally. Individual turnout is fine for some horses, many it isn’t.
Horses are herd animals whose digestive systems are built for grazing and whose bodies are built for regular movement. This is basic biology. In all subject groups of literally anything ever, there’s always outliers. Stating that 24/7 turnout with friends is best doesn’t negate nor ignore the outliers, it is only acknowledging that it is the best lifestyle for the species based on group biological factors.
I agree, how much a horse cost doesn’t matter, it is still a horse and deserves our best care.
As for how horses do in a stall, thousands of horses and centuries of managing stabled horses show us it can be done properly, with the right kind of management.
Plenty of horses have and are thriving under stabled management.
While we may consider what could possibly be an average ideal management for horses in general, I will still say, lets not dismiss other offhand so easily as not good enough.
We know we can have horses managed fine, each according to what is best for them, even in stalls, as there are mis-managed horses any place, even in pretty green pastures.
Proper management, not that it be a stall or pen or pasture, or fancy barn or simple shed, management is the key, not that where a horse stands is a stall or pasture.
Yes, it is possible. I think most people realize it is not ideal. When a barn has no access to any turnout, there is no choice. When they do, it makes the most sense to actually turn horses out.
I once looked at a horse to buy who lived in a nice enough barn but his only turnout was a mud paddock barely larger than his stall. So the only time he really got to stretch his legs was when he was being ridden. Big gorgeous TB, 5 years old, never raced. I took him home on trial and when I brought him into his field, which was our smaller paddock of about 1/3 acre with a run in shed. He ran around and had fun with that and seemed perfectly happy. I brought him out to one of our pastures of at least 1-1/2 acres, showed him around and let him loose. I swear he ran and ran and ran for about 15 straight minutes with me stressing out he was going to hurt himself. He finally comes running over to me with the happiest look on his face. He had some underlying medical issue is the only reason I didn’t buy him but I regret not getting a second opinion and finding out if there was maintenance that could be done because I really loved that big guy and hated to return him to that barn. He wasn’t high dollar but was very well trained. And the way he responded to the turnout, he’d be one I’d have no qualms with him being an outdoor 24/7 horse.
And I’ve also had the opposite, couldn’t leave them out more than an hour or two before they’d be pacing the fence begging to come in.
I worked at a barn with many different borders and this one woman had a lot of fancy warm blood jumpers that were Never turned out. She came maybe twice a week to ride and they were occasionally walked on the walker for 30 minutes. After a lot of convincing she finally agreed to let the barn turn them out for a few hours a day because they were all insane. I keep my own horses out 24/7 unless the weather is bad. Her horses were so pent up it they went beserk when they went outside. One of them was so bad he had to be drugged and put into a small round pen with high rails because he would flip out and run around the field screaming and jump out. Another mare had apparently broken her back flipping over a fence before she was here too. One had founder the vet said was from standing motionless in the stall so long. Cribbing, weaving, so much colic. Took a while but got most of them so they could go out for at least 6 hours a day. One would only out for a while then at 12pm sharp start screaming and running around until she was brought in. Never saw so many health problems then at that barn. Horses kept in most of the day or always and were under a fly spray mister all day. 3 of them died of cancer in my 8 years there too which I’ve never seen before either, young ones under 10. A few horses got copd in the dusty stalls. There were acres of beautiful grassy fields and smaller paddocks in front for resting the grass too so never got why they were stuffed inside most of the day. The ones that got to out were pulled in at night because the barn owner didn’t want them out of the barn unattended which I kinda get but 0 to 6 hours a day is not enough turnout to keep the healthy. They’re made to move and be social not be in stalls with solid walls between them all day.
Main reason I left the barn I was at was because only 30 mins per horse per day and no one put more than one horse in a paddock at one time and if they did it was their own horses. We don’t have much grass paddocks mainly just sand. The barn was huge, over 500 horses on the property with only 12 grass paddocks and 6 sand paddocks. Only a handful of people actually used their 30 min allowance of paddock time and majority of the time the polo ponies took up the paddocks.
I moved to a private stable, we have indoor barn and outdoor stables, we have 5 very large ( by our standards! Around 15 aces each ) of paddocks that are in the middle of the desert and it takes like 5 min walk to get there, also 3 smaller ones all with shelters. We also have a small paddock in the middle of the stable, and 7 right outside behind the stables. With only around 15 horses on the properly most the horses are out as much as they want. Most of the time my horses are left to roam freely around the stable, the least amount of time spent in their stalls the better. One of mine if he is stalled longer than 5 hours at a time he goes crazy and has injured himself so many times.
I think in general horses are built to be out not cooped up.
Where I am from our horses have stables with small paddocks attached, like an 8x8metres outside area due to lack of turnout. When the arena isn’t loose we just let them have a good run in there for about 20mins. I wish we had more space where we could turn them out but it is what it is.
I’ve seen stallions locked in box stalls, endlessly. They turned into hideous monsters. Build adequate fencing for a stallion pen, or geld him! Good grief! Even our bulls have their bull pen.
To keep bringing up examples of poorly managed horses in stalls doesn’t mean any other than yes, there are poorly managed horses every place.
Doesn’t mean stalls are evil.
There was a place here with two grey mares turned out 24/7 with a 10’ x 12’ plywood shed, their “pasture” a few weeds.
That is not an example to insist “24/7 horses are starving, we should not keep horses out”?
I called animal control on them.
Eventually animal control was able educate the owners how to care for their horses properly.
Let’s not confuse mis-management with where we may keep our horses, doesn’t work like that.
Repeating, it is not where you keep a horse, but that you manage properly, with the right kind of feed and exercise and so the horse thrives, if stabled or turned out or any combination of those.
