A fair number. Not to mention reschooling spoiled horses. I’d have to sell you a DVD to explain it all:). But short answer, it starts with good basic ground work, they know what whoa is before you ever get on (longeing, in hand training, some use long lines), and you start on the turns with a basic leading rein, and progress from there.
“There should be a punishment if they bite kick etc.”
In Feeltherides post, there WAS something to deter the undesireable action and change the horses mind; the horse came into his own pressure, the best training tool available is when the horse figures out the lesson on his own. She didn`t have to be the taskmaster or the villian. She set it up so the horse would find it. Horses learn by this exceedingly well.
Feeltherides, I hope I did not speak out of turn interpreting your post.
Unfortunately, Ray Hunt, Tom and Bill Dorrance are now gone but some of their students are still around. I was privileged to witness Ray Hunt on many occasions so I think I know what the real deal looks like so I can compare.
When attending a clinic, I try to get as close to the source as possible through someone who worked directly with Tom and/or Bill D. and who carries on their philosophy.
It is not a method or technique, it is a way of thinking and being. If each horse is an individual, then how could a method or a handful of methods work with every horse. But, with a philosophy, there is something always to draw from because the thought is that a person must treat each and every horse, not only as a horse (with a real knowledge of the equine species from observation and hands on interaction) but as an individual.
One of the things that really bugs me is when someone says, “Well, I do Parelli, or I use CA methods etc. or I use all of them.” To me that proves that the person doesn`t have a true and sound foundation to draw from on their own. I guess that is ok though because everyone has to START somewhere so they can compare and finally find within themselves the answers. They are “searching”. The clue here is that they get beyond the PP and CA “methods” and really get a grasp of the basics and the foundation of horsemanship and find a mentor that will help them in their learning so that they can think for themselves, someone who will “set it up so they can find it.”
[QUOTE=re-runs;6515776]
One of the things that really bugs me is when someone says, “Well, I do Parelli, or I use CA methods etc. or I use all of them.” To me that proves that the person doesn`t have a true and sound foundation to draw from on their own. I guess that is ok though because everyone has to START somewhere so they can compare and finally find within themselves the answers. They are “searching”. The clue here is that they get beyond the PP and CA “methods” and really get a grasp of the basics and the foundation of horsemanship and find a mentor that will help them in their learning so that they can think for themselves, someone who will “set it up so they can find it.”[/QUOTE]
For me, it’s not that I don’t have a “true and sound foundation” I’m just trying a different approach. I’ve started quite a few young horses and have been the exercise rider for many top level jumpers. Would I use this approach on every single horse? No, but it’s given me another way to look at how to handle different situations. I’ve never had to run my horse into the ground (which is a big complaint I hear of CA) for him to “get it”. I don’t believe you have to only stick to one way to work with horses, unless of course you want to be a certified CA, PP or whoever trainer. That’s not for me but if that’s what someone else wants to do, more power to them. I am open to see how other people do things, weather it’s to see another way I want to try or something I would never do. I’m a firm believer you can learn something from everyone.
[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6384081]
I don’t.
John Lyons taught women to run horses in the round pens.
Parelli taught women to use an Amish buggy whip.
and now
Clinton Anderson teaches women to “flex” their horses.:no:
Give me a break from all of them.
There is nothing about him or his program that is not crap.There is no “release” taught to these animals as their owners/riders are mostly not horse trainers and just think it’s cool to bend the horse to their foot and the one with the most bend wins…
bleech.
they lack feel and tact and any judgement as to when to STOP “flexing”…
they lack any judgement as to what this majikal “flexing” does…
They have no idea what and when this “flexing” did have a practical application and why…
(anyone wanna shoot a guess?)
it is at best obnoxious like a crest release in English riding and at worst the Dressage rollkur…
in any case you’ll never see a horse of mine afflicted with it.
Tamara[/QUOTE]
And your clinics are where and when and you teach women to do what?
[QUOTE=re-runs;6515776]
One of the things that really bugs me is when someone says, “Well, I do Parelli, or I use CA methods etc. or I use all of them.” To me that proves that the person doesn`t have a true and sound foundation to draw from on their own. I guess that is ok though because everyone has to START somewhere so they can compare and finally find within themselves the answers. They are “searching”. The clue here is that they get beyond the PP and CA “methods” and really get a grasp of the basics and the foundation of horsemanship and find a mentor that will help them in their learning so that they can think for themselves, someone who will “set it up so they can find it.”[/QUOTE]
How is this different from someone who uses a trainer? They are using that trainer’s methods of teaching their horse just without the household name being thrown about.
I went to clinics put on by a CA clone when my horse was a youngster. Succeeding in frying her brain to the point she hates particular groundwork exercises. And yes, I am middle-aged but have owned horses my entire life and have yet to handle one that I am afraid of.
I have seen it and I can tell you if I whapped my lovely and full of personality TB mare in the face with a stick, she would turn around and whap me in the face with her hoof. I would deserve it. Kindness and firmness will get you much farther, and patience - yes patience.
There’s a difference between bullying the horse to get the behavior and giving the horse the tools to reach the correct conclusion. There’s also a difference between knowing why something is done versus just doing something exactly how you saw it done without knowing why (or the appropriate timing behind it).
I know the bullying, but I’m trying to develop that feel to be able to give the horse the tools to figure it out on his own, so I’m not saying I know the answer. I think some of CA’s methods are a little too harsh – you could get to the same result with a bit more patience and allowing the horse to work it out himself.
In regards to the OP: what happens if you just ask for a bit of give to pressure in either direction, either while on the ground or in the saddle instead of drawing his head all the way around? Are you immediately releasing to any TRY by your horse to give to the pressure?
Can you do any bit flexions (a gentle gentle gentle wiggling/back and forth of the snaffle bit) to have him loosen his jaw, chew, and relax?
I’m also tempted to say to teach him how to yield the hind quarters (get him yielding by stepping under with the hind quarters not just stepping sideways), yield the forehand (crossing over in front while driving away from you, not just shuffling sideways) first to get him moving/bending correctly. Once you got him limber with both of those from each side, try the neck flex - he might be more agreeable and less nippy once his brain and body are on the same page.
He will over “flex” to the side when asked and either bite his side or me! He’s a bit better now but I don’t ask him to do it all the time and now when I do ask I try to reward him when he doesn’t over flex or nip. I was just curious how CA would handle the situation. I would love to get my horse more supple under saddle, leg yielding and all that! That is always the goal!
One really good training tip I always keep in mind is to teach a horse to
“Hunt the Slack”. Goes along that when they do what you want, you give them some slack, so they will try harder and do it right faster the next time you ask.
First, I just want to say I’m so grateful for COTH.There’s so much NH hysteria, and when it all first started I didn’t think that much of it. After awhile, I felt like I’d been slipped crazy pills. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’ve learned things from so-called NHorsemen and I think a good idea can come from anywhere. But there is so much that I haven’t been able to make sense of, doesn’t seem “natural” at all, or just plain seems like it’s accomplishing exactly the opposite of what I want from a horse I’m riding. Lots of good opinions and perspectives on this thread.
Second, with regards to the OP:
[QUOTE=JFJ;6381771]
I’m not sure what the right move to make is, because he is flexing but to hit him for biting seems to tell him not to flex. Any ideas?[/QUOTE]
I don’t think that’s correct reasoning. If you asked your horse to walk and he bolted instead, would you worry about pulling him up because, well, he did go forward? If I ask my horse to canter on the left lead and he gives me the right, is it close enough? Now, that doesn’t mean the correct response is to lose my temper and wail on him. But your horse can’t know he’s made a mistake if you don’t tell him. I definitely don’t think there is a one size fits all for any horse or handler, so how you let him know, as long as it doesn’t involve a trip to crazy town, is ok with me. I did want to add though - you mention when you flex him, he will then “overflex” to bite. So, what happened to your outside rein?
Meanwhile and unrelated, I agree with all those who said this is an exercise with questionable utility. I don’t think it’s normally physically damaging (assuming one is not trotting around like this. Sigh.), but I have gotten on horses who’d been flexed in this manner so much they had no concept at all of flexing through their bodies, tracking straight on a bend if asked, and were basically noodles who attempted to solve all of life’s confusion by volunteering this one “right answer.” Blech.
Never underestimate the power of a respected local, small-name trainer to make your life better. Nothing anyone every types out here will make as much sense to the recipient as a hands-on experience with a good teacher who has never done a Vetericyn commercial.
Not sure I would ever give CA the sole credit for the ORS. Not sure how that got started.
ORS is great for getting a horse loose and unbraced.
It is the start of teaching a horse to disengage its hindend, then crossing over the front is another great addition.
So many horses are locked in their ribcages. A horse that is locked is super stiff.
Dorrance, Hunt, Buck and the MANY others that trained under Dorrance and Hunt are the people that have the real knowledge.
Softness comes from a supple happy horse. Not a stiff and bracy one.
I wouldnt give CA or PP any credit. They have no real concern for helping the HORSE. They are busy selling stuff to mostly older woman that are scared of their horses.
Most of those woman have NO CLUE on feel, so have very little hope of actually creating an environment that will create a solid foundation to have a horse that actually would ever trust it’s rider.
Feel is something that MUST be felt to be understood. No one can explain it IF you dont FEEL it.
If someone doesnt have a CLUE, no program or method will ever make that person get what a FEEL is, IMO.
BTW, if a horse EVER bit me, it would fear for his life for a few seconds after it happened.
IF you think your horse would EVER try to bit the head mare in its herd, you are totally wrong.
The fact that your horse BIT you, means he considers himself above you.
It is a respect issue! That needs to change to make it safe to be around him.
He probably would not think twice to run you over if something scares him.
Your space is HIS as of now. Please, correct that, just in the name for safety!
Totally OT here…
See, I’m not so sure about this one with some horses. Gelding is put out with another gelding who is very much the dominant of the two – Gelding Two chases Gelding One off his hay with abandon to the point that neither ate for a very long time since Gelding Two thinks ALL piles are his; Gelding Two gives Gelding One a super hard time and enjoys driving him all over the paddock.
In the above scenario, Gelding One would start a nipping war with cruising in to bite at the hip, face, or neck before bolting off – Gelding Two double barreled kicked Gelding One at least twice (while I was watching) and Gelding One got his jugular nearly ripped out (wasn’t there for that one but the scar was something to behold), yet he’d still continue picking that nipping war.
Are some horses just beyond recognizing the boss and will keep poking the bear with a stick till they get themselves killed due to their upbringing (ie, not having been let loose in a herd environment when young to learn those dynamics)?
(I understand that MARE didn’t appear in that, but even in a gelding band, there’s always one dominant.)
I had one like that
[QUOTE=VaqueroToro;6583035]
Totally OT here…
Are some horses just beyond recognizing the boss and will keep poking the bear with a stick till they get themselves killed due to their upbringing (ie, not having been let loose in a herd environment when young to learn those dynamics)? QUOTE]
There were a few times I thought my smaller gelding was going to be kicked to death by my mare. The big gelding was boss and the mare was his lieutenant, some days it seemed like the little guy was trying to climb the rank chain. Bless his heart, he never stopped trying even though she would give him a whopper of a whippin’. I used to tell him “Someday you will be king”. 
CA seems like a complete a** to me. jmho 
Clinton would return the favor
I am VERY familiar with Clinton’s method… I have seen almost all his videos. His method works 100% of the time if you follow his instructions and master the art of “timing”.
He would tell you to return the favor with a mouthy horse. If he bites at your toe in the saddle (gently) jam your toe into his mouth and rub it around. Same thing if he bites your elbow on the ground or at the handy stick, etc. I have used this technique a number of times and if you are constant, it always works. Horses tire of it really quickly…
Look at it this way, when you were a kid and another kid poked you and you cried, the kid would keep poking you. If that same kid poked you and you poked them back they would figure out pretty quick that it’s no fun to poke you. The same principle applies to horses.
[QUOTE=goneriding24;6399670]
Yep, yep, yep!! I can see that in my mind!!
Seriously, horse training isn’t rocket science. But watching some of the TV trainers, they make it hard somehow. Watching a good trainer is like watching paint dry. Pretty dull most times. But that wouldn’t pull in the dough, I’m guessing.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
My yearling took a swipe at me with her front hoof when I was working with her the other day; it was miles away so no chance of it hitting me, but she got told who was in charge of that herd right away for about 4 seconds; not with beating but scaring her with my voice. She backed away and learned her lesson. We went back to doing what we were doing with no drama and she was nothing but sweet and respectful. Youngsters (and some mature horses) are constantly testing their boundaries and you have to be on top of it or you’ll end up with a monster.
I realize I’m a newbie here, but I’m not a horse newbie. I had a big Quarter horse who was very spoiled. I like to blame the guys, I didn’t start this one myself 8).
Anyway, he developed the bad habit of flexing around to nip or actually grab your jeans and try to pull you off his back when he was finished riding.
I finally tired of it and kicked his nose. I’m sure it hurt him but didn’t damage him any. He stopped.
[QUOTE=Remudamom;6604157]
I realize I’m a newbie here, but I’m not a horse newbie. I had a big Quarter horse who was very spoiled. I like to blame the guys, I didn’t start this one myself 8).
Anyway, he developed the bad habit of flexing around to nip or actually grab your jeans and try to pull you off his back when he was finished riding.
I finally tired of it and kicked his nose. I’m sure it hurt him but didn’t damage him any. He stopped.[/QUOTE]
Why not just block with the reins, rather then kicking him in the teeth?
If you’re so late in noticing him moving that he has time to reach all the way around, you’re pretty darn late.
[QUOTE=aktill;6604898]
Why not just block with the reins, rather then kicking him in the teeth?
If you’re so late in noticing him moving that he has time to reach all the way around, you’re pretty darn late.[/QUOTE]
I think it’s probably better for him to come into his own pressure, ie, if his nose happens to meet with the toe of your boot as he’s reaching back to bite and you just happen to put a little extra ooph in it (not a full kick but a bit a quick jolt) it might make a better impression on him than simply preventing him from turning his head. The impulse to bite will still be there with a rein block – thunking his nose on something pointy (your boot) will be a learning experience much in the way that it only takes one or two zaps from an electric fence to teach to avoid it (usually).
