Anyone read the CotH article about Hunters as a sport?

[Willesdon]

“Working Hunter” show classes arrived in the UK, from America I believe, several decades ago. The horses are first jumped over a rustic course which is 60% of the 100 marks available. The usual SJ scoring system is applied. Then, secondly, the horse is judged for conformation and ride, with style and suitability going in to the assessment. This is the subjective part. But in big classes only the clear rounds are called back in and often, in the horse classes, there is a ride judge who tries out each animal. The two judges then confer and total their marks. The courses are frequently imaginative in design and can be fairly challenging for the riders. Since so many big shows still have grass arenas there is a closer link to actual cross country. These are popular classes to enter as they are an attractive combination of SJ and showing and you don’t need a perfect animal to do well. They are popular with spectators because the jumping does get a bit wild and wooly over a challenging course with e.g. bullfinches to jump or even water to go through. Grade A showjumpers and Advanced Eventers are not permitted to enter.

Have a look at some videos of working hunter classes in the UK or Ireland. They are definitely more lively than the US version. Louise Bell is a person to look for.

[paw]

Yes - we’ve now gotten to where even your typical “derby” is on some flat field (with maybe a built up area for a step jump or a small bank). But the basic terriain is just flat - heaven forbid that the 6-figure horses have to deal with the real world.

[Aussie_2020]

Watching hunters is boring, I’d like to see outdoor classes on grass with “real” obstacles and fences. Plus I’d like a more active horse, galloping with energy and showing a bit of verve.

[aohunter0629]

There’s no standards truly which makes it impossible to explain. There’s what you “think” but look at how inconsistent judging is. There has to be clear standards being judged and scored and those cards being produced.

[trubandloki]

@Hoofbeat_Heartbeat

To this point, I feel like if hunters were judged with numerical scores per jump, let’s say, that that might be more interesting to a crowd. Like, oh this horse scored a “9” over that jump, but that one was a “6”, etc. And there would be a definition for each “jump score”. But of course, this would require a complete revamping of how hunters are judged sooooo

And I, as someone who primarily shows in the hunters, would additionally appreciate this scoring method! A girl can dream.

Where would the scores for a wrong lead or bad change end up? Would there be a score spot for striding too? The ends, if someone has a sloppy corner that needs to count somewhere?

[ChronReader]

I’m kind of confused as I thought and have thought of hunters as kind of always having been for the owners and children/amateurs? Not really a spectator sport except in the way that maybe a tournament for members at a tennis club might be? My sense, tuning in a bit to horseshowing recently, is that the biggest changes since I first showed in the late ‘80s have to do with venues and circuits. The consolidation has really changed things. In my area of the northeast, it now seems like one can basically go to a schooling show or go to series at single venues (e.g., Saugerties, Princeton). The seasonal fka “A” shows have seemingly vanished. I think one reason hunters seem more boring (if they do) is the fact that the venues don’t change.

[CBoylen]

@ChronReader

I think one reason hunters seem more boring (if they do) is the fact that the venues don’t change.

I agree. I think the slow death of the “special show” is also slowly killing the hunter division.

[findeight]

It has been awhile but there was some discussion maybe 10-15 years ago about having the stewards hired and paid by the governing authority instead of the show managers. It died and with almost half the board made up of managers, fat chance it can be revived for further discussion and the good old boys (includig a few girls) can continue running their own show keeping new faces and ideas out.

[Janet]

@findeight

Bravo for the author pointing out that almost half of the board of directors governing our shows are….show managers. Seven out of sixteen.

Remember the debate over even one serving back when. What happened?

I am old enough to remember when it was American Horse Shows Association. It was literally an association OF “Horse Shows”. The only reason for a rider to be a member was if they were going for year end awards.

Furthermore, one of my father’s favorite sayings was “Once you start charging admission, it stops being a sport and becomes entertainment”.

[CBoylen]

The conflict of interest is imbedded in our culture. The AHSA (American Horse Shows Association) is the foundation of our national governing body. Completely overhauling that system of government is a big task. I’m not saying it’s unimportant or impossible, but it’s a big change to a system that’s been in place since 1917.

[albytb]

@paw

Yes - we’ve now gotten to where even your typical “derby” is on some flat field (with maybe a built up area for a step jump or a small bank). But the basic terriain is just flat - heaven forbid that the 6-figure horses have to deal with the real world.

Agreed. I love Derbies but how many are an ACTUAL Derby? I’m trying to think of how many recognized venues use an actual Derby field. Fieldstone… maybe Dunham Woods Riding Club for their singular tiny show each year? Obviously it’s not possible at every venue but still…

[Madison]

Tryon and WEF both use a grass field for at least some of their derbies. One of the realities in general is that many remaining venues have no field or terrain available, so you see hunter derbies being run in a regular ring with regular jumps a lot of times.

[findeight]

The open terrain versus groomed arena is somewhat a moot point as many, if not most, show grounds have no open terrain, afraid we are stuck with that.

Good course designer can recreate the fences and questions of open terrain, but sadly not the terrain now graced with McMansions and farmettes. Think some need to take it easy condemning riders who do not ride over open terrain when they have no access to any.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

So many thoughts here…

For starters, yes, the same pairs keep winning and it seems like the step child of the horse shows.
That being said, with the $250K ClipMyHorse Hunter Spectacular/Challenge/SomeBigName, they are attracting the GP riders into the hunter ring. I’ve seen about 3-4 GP riders showing in International Derbies and Qualifiers that typically are jumping the big colored sticks instead, so they’re certainly out there and prize-hunting.
To me, the money seems to be attracting the additional horses, but the spectators need something else to look at, as well. I realize we’re a sensitive breed, but at that level, why not add water under a jump? IF it was a traditional hunt course, there are things called brooks and streams.
When I was kid, I remember all kinds of crazy hunter courses with hills and circling around big trees, and interesting combinations, but it just seems to be catering to those that just want to be pretty and ride the million dollar horses.
But, all that being said, having the WEC International Derby under the lights in the stadium a few weeks ago on a Friday was a big draw. Plenty of people in the stands and milling around. Crowd seemed really into it. Maybe more of those and less of the 1.30-whatever speed jumpers would be a draw? I know we all love FEI, but I think it was disappointing that “Premier Hunter Week” did not include one single class in the Grand Arena. I get that logistically FEI is tough anywhere else, but maybe find another week for “Premier Hunter Week”? It’s just disappointing that the opportunity isn’t there for anyone other than medium/high jumpers and the WEC cup eq kids. Many other venues have realized that if you throw the heart and soul of the horse show (your childrens and adult ammys) a bone once in awhile and let them play in the big ring and “get the photo” that you’ll get the big entries too. Just my $.02.

[Nikki]

I say that the Hunters are a fashion show where the horse is judged on quality of movement (flat class), jump, balance and rhythmic way of going to the jumps. Beautiful turnout to the nines.

Jumpers are Rock n’ Roll where its the horses/riders vs the course designer. Still, beautiful turnout.

Both have to answer questions set by the course designer.

[findeight]

There really is nothing wrong with wanting to be pretty and ride a million dollar horse…not that I would know from personal experience

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

Nope. There’s not. But it’s not going to encourage the draw of the crowds unless those pretty riders and million dollar. horses actually try something different or we lay out the rings with more appealing landscape. There’s never been a lack of expensive horseflesh and beautiful riding in the hunters, but it’s becoming less and less likely that a scrappy rider/horse combo would be able to top the list with it being the same mundane layout week after week.

[fivestrideline]

@Tini_Sea_Soldier1

it’s becoming less and less likely that a scrappy rider/horse combo would be able to top the list with it being the same mundane layout week after week.

But from a spectator standpoint, no one would know or care? Unless we are doing some sort of rider background and interview (in a place where casual spectators would see it)… Everyone loves an underdog, but this isn’t NASCAR, or the Olympics, or baseball, or really anything where people are going to seek out or access rider bios to know who might be a “scrappy” combo. I don’t think that matters if the point is to draw spectators.

I also don’t really care to draw spectators. Hunters are boring, sure, but so are so many other sports. I enjoy watching them, and I really enjoy the eq and pony rings in particular. I just don’t think drawing Joe Normal into the stands to watch The Hunters is worth the effort and the impact on the discipline it would take. Look at Eventing - that discipline has suffered greatly under the push to make it more spectator friendly, more tv friendly.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

I think it also goes beyond that. My husband didn’t come from this world and although he’s very much into sports, it was a lot easier for him to pick up what was happening in the jumpers vs the hunters. He can somewhat tell if a horse misses a change or swaps off, and he knows that it’s scored a 40 for a rail, but other than that, he’s still confused if I have a nice rhythm and maybe could have done one less going into a line or the the single oxer, but worked it out, why I don’t ribbon? He’s like… they all have slight issues but they’re all so pretty. How does one outdo the other one? Sometimes I know the answer, sometimes I don’t. My go-to is just to remind him that we pay for people’s opinions, and like anything in life, sometimes they’re wrong. LOL.

So imagine coming in with NO point of reference, it’s difficult. We would definitely need some sort of guide or cheatsheet for people to understand and follow along.

For an alternative example, I can’t tell you, outside of how much splash and how straight a diver is, why one platform diver gets scored more than another. So I kinda see it happening in other sports too, and being kinda boring, especially since ours all do the same “dive” and it takes 2 mins for each of them to complete it.

[trubandloki]

@fivestrideline

Look at Eventing

I realize it was not your point, but I will say that I do not see lots outside spectators at the average event either. Even at the regional championship level there are not people watching who are not associated with the riders.

Sure, there are spectators at the big international level events.

There are not big international level hunter shows.

@Tini_Sea_Soldier1

For an alternative example, I can’t tell you, outside of how much splash and how straight a diver is, why one platform diver gets scored more than another. So I kinda see it happening in other sports too, and being kinda boring, especially since ours all do the same “dive” and it takes 2 mins for each of them to complete it.

Very good point.
I watched way more diving than I care to admit to last Olympics. I totally do not understand the scoring. It has that very much in common with a hunter show.