Anyone with experience raising sickly rescued orphan foal? Seeking insight on health issue

[Briggsie]

Hi all,
Looking to you guys for a bit of insight. I adopted a nurse-mare foal (the disposable commodity of the nurse mare industry). I have had my filly since 15 July, and have a good relationship with the foster. My filly is part of a band of foals who were 1 months of age when rescued, and as you can imagine, they were sickly.

My girl has had at least two shots of Excede (EDITED for accuracy: Exced is EXCEDE[SUP]®[/SUP] (ceftiofur crystalline free acid) Sterile Suspension is indicated for the treatment of lower respiratory tract infections in horses caused by susceptible strains of Streptococcus equisubspecies zooepidemicus) since her intake, given that she had a snotty nose and cough.

Since adopting her on 15 July, I and my vet have worked together to improve her health. My vet’s protocol was as follows:

18 July: started 10 days SMZs (2x daily), OTC cough syrup (checked pallet, no cleft pallet, that was fine)

28 July, 5 more days of SMZs (i reported that snot did not subside, but at recheck, resp. sounded better and weezy breathing went away). Vet took blood to determine if dealing with bacteria (rule out bacterial pnuemonia,
rhodococcus). Came back negative for bac. So likely dealing with inflamation. Vet decided we should wait and see, given she had no fever, still eating, and she was not lethargic.

7 September-cough still present, snotty nose still present. Seems to really drain out when she’s eating.

Also, she’s since been weaned. She was on Goats milk and Rejuvinaide’s Foal’s first, now on TC Mare and Foal and weaned off milk.

Can anyone who has ever raised a sickly rescued orphan foal please offer some insight? I texted my vet and said we may need to try Excede again.

[JB]

Excede is quite different from penicillin

But yes, it sounds like something either more aggressive, like Excede, or much longer use of SMZs may be needed. My vet has found over the years that many respiratory junk needs 1 and sometimes even 2 months of SMZs to really be dealt with.

She may be dealing with a poor immune system, as I assume no IgG check was ever done at birth. I have no idea if a plasma transfusion is a viable option but it might be worth asking about.

[Briggsie]

@JB

Excede is quite different from penicillin

But yes, it sounds like something either more aggressive, like Excede, or much longer use of SMZs may be needed. My vet has found over the years that many respiratory junk needs 1 and sometimes even 2 months of SMZs to really be dealt with.

She may be dealing with a poor immune system, as I assume no IgG check was ever done at birth. I have no idea if a plasma transfusion is a viable option but it might be worth asking about.

gotcha…sorry, I thought they were one in the same. Thank you for that clarification.

And I am glad you mentioned prolonged SMZs because I have never had to use past 10 days, but knowing it’s done, is reassuring to me if that’s the route my vet decides again.

Also, i think it’s worth mentioned she’s 5 months old now…and you are correct, no IgG was done. These babies were ripped off mom, put into a stall with about 10 others, and given crap all stock formula and whoever died, died. Whoever lived, lived.

[Briggsie]

@JB

Excede is quite different from penicillin

But yes, it sounds like something either more aggressive, like Excede, or much longer use of SMZs may be needed. My vet has found over the years that many respiratory junk needs 1 and sometimes even 2 months of SMZs to really be dealt with.

She may be dealing with a poor immune system, as I assume no IgG check was ever done at birth. I have no idea if a plasma transfusion is a viable option but it might be worth asking about.

also I edited the Exced references so someone does not do a search and find my bad information.

[NancyM]

If the foal did not get the colostrum in the first 24 hours, there would be more serious and life threatening issues by now at 5 months of age. Or be dead already. Assume that the foal has been raised as an orphan, as orphan foals ARE raised daily around the world. But shipping and less than individualized care has put the foal at risk, and reduced immunity. It sounds to me like you are an angry horse owner, angry at the Nurse Mare Industry. I’m hoping that you did not purchase this foal out of that anger at an industry, but because you actually WANTED the foal to raise for your own purposes. Whether or not that anger emotion is rational, I can’t say. Depends on the individuals involved, as it always does with horse care.

You have purchased an orphan foal, from a dealer. She has been subjected to stresses, and different bacteria and viruses than the antibodies that her colostrum prepared her for, as a result of her life so far. This was your choice to do this, for some reason that is personal to you. You have veterinary involvement, you have done the right thing by your foal with this move. This is quite normal for foals/weanlings that are sold and shipped, and being an orphan itself is always stressful too, to be susceptible to illness. The nurse mare industry may offend you, but it does help another foal, yes, possibly a more valuable foal than the foal you own. This may offend you. But, many of the nurse mare foals have become valuable athletes in their own right, possibly more valuable than the foal who received the nurse mare’s care. All foals have potential value, for something, to someone. Foals with good genetics behind them are a great investment for you. Congratulations on your purchase. Hopefully with your care and training, this young horse will prosper her success as YOUR horse will help other nurse mare foals to find great homes too.

Your foal needs immune support, good feed, needs medication, needs a less stressful life. And is likely sired by a good stallion, and out of a mare with a great disposition, who has great milk and a loving and accepting personality. Congratulations, due to this, your chances for raising a great horse are better than many other foal owners, whose foals may not have these advantages.

You see, I am a person who really liked to buy PMU foals, an industry that many horsemen loved to hate, and objected to, and protested against. I shopped for foals who had breeding I liked, and looked like what I was wanting to own, raise, train and sell. I met many good horsemen in the PMU industry, pleasant people who loved horses, and worked hard to make a living with their horses, and care for their horses, unlike what was often publicized by critical organizations who had never been to a PMU sale, nor met the horsemen involved. The PMU horsemen were threatened with death, with having their barns and houses burned down, and had to be cautious with who they trusted as a result. As a result of much of the objection to the PMU industry, Premarin is now produced in China, not North America. A step down in care for the mares and foals, IMO. So be careful of your objections, the results can be harmful to horses. All horses are part of an industry, the equine industry that we all participate in. In an industry, money changes hands, and people pay for whatever interest they have in horses. Without this, there are no horses, and we are all poorer. So be careful of your criticism. Not to say that there are not things to be critical OF in the horse industry, poor horsemanship and poor horse care is always an issue. But these things are often found in people’s back yards, perhaps less than in a very public and scrutinized parts of the industry. Try to be less judgemental of parts of the industry that you may not understand fully.

Just like the PMU industry, just being PART of a criticized industry does not necessarily mean that the people involved are not good horsemen, nor care greatly about the horses in their care. Yes, the foals are produced. Yes, they are available for sale. Yes, there are risks and expenses involved. As a skilled and experienced horseman yourself, you knew this going in to the transaction. If you did not know this, you are learning it now.

Good luck with your foal.

[JB]

@NancyM

If the foal did not get the colostrum in the first 24 hours, there would be more serious and life threatening issues by now at 5 months of age. Or be dead already.

A foal can get colostrum, and either get low quality colostrum, or not absorb the antibodies properly, and have an adequate but not great immune system. That’s what I was getting at. Something obviously is not right with this foal’s immunity and a plasma transfusion is just something to ask about re: appropriateness in this situation.

[Highflyer]

IME it’s not all that uncommon for even foals with normal IgG and raised by the mom to have issues-- we actually gave up on showing foals because they always seemed to end up being sick for a month (and spread it to the ones that didn’t go, too.) Judging by my brother’s preschool age kids, it’s not even a horse specific issue.

[Simkie]

Do you have a vet hospital nearby that can scope the foal? Has a culture and sensitivity been done on the drainage? That’s where I’d go next.

You know the whole “nurse mare foal” thing is hogwash, right? Here’s a thread on it: https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…act-or-fiction

[Cashela]

My friend has a mare that she got as a nurse mare foal. She was very sick as a baby. She was loaded with worms and I remember her having respiratory issues. She made it even though it was touch and go and she is a big huge healthy mare now. Hope you can figure out what is going on with yours

[Marla_100]

Besides the lack of proper care initially there’s also the psychological distress imposed on these babies from being

suddenly pulled from their momma’s. Depression alone can cause a 'Failure To Thrive" just as it does human babies.

I’ve heard of orphan foal raisers who even sleep w/ the babies so they’re not as distressed.

[Briggsie]

@NancyM

If the foal did not get the colostrum in the first 24 hours, there would be more serious and life threatening issues by now at 5 months of age. Or be dead already. Assume that the foal has been raised as an orphan, as orphan foals ARE raised daily around the world. But shipping and less than individualized care has put the foal at risk, and reduced immunity. It sounds to me like you are an angry horse owner, angry at the Nurse Mare Industry. I’m hoping that you did not purchase this foal out of that anger at an industry, but because you actually WANTED the foal to raise for your own purposes. Whether or not that anger emotion is rational, I can’t say. Depends on the individuals involved, as it always does with horse care.

You have purchased an orphan foal, from a dealer. She has been subjected to stresses, and different bacteria and viruses than the antibodies that her colostrum prepared her for, as a result of her life so far. This was your choice to do this, for some reason that is personal to you. You have veterinary involvement, you have done the right thing by your foal with this move. This is quite normal for foals/weanlings that are sold and shipped, and being an orphan itself is always stressful too, to be susceptible to illness. The nurse mare industry may offend you, but it does help another foal, yes, possibly a more valuable foal than the foal you own. This may offend you. But, many of the nurse mare foals have become valuable athletes in their own right, possibly more valuable than the foal who received the nurse mare’s care. All foals have potential value, for something, to someone. Foals with good genetics behind them are a great investment for you. Congratulations on your purchase. Hopefully with your care and training, this young horse will prosper her success as YOUR horse will help other nurse mare foals to find great homes too.

Your foal needs immune support, good feed, needs medication, needs a less stressful life. And is likely sired by a good stallion, and out of a mare with a great disposition, who has great milk and a loving and accepting personality. Congratulations, due to this, your chances for raising a great horse are better than many other foal owners, whose foals may not have these advantages.

You see, I am a person who really liked to buy PMU foals, an industry that many horsemen loved to hate, and objected to, and protested against. I shopped for foals who had breeding I liked, and looked like what I was wanting to own, raise, train and sell. I met many good horsemen in the PMU industry, pleasant people who loved horses, and worked hard to make a living with their horses, and care for their horses, unlike what was often publicized by critical organizations who had never been to a PMU sale, nor met the horsemen involved. The PMU horsemen were threatened with death, with having their barns and houses burned down, and had to be cautious with who they trusted as a result. As a result of much of the objection to the PMU industry, Premarin is now produced in China, not North America. A step down in care for the mares and foals, IMO. So be careful of your objections, the results can be harmful to horses. All horses are part of an industry, the equine industry that we all participate in. In an industry, money changes hands, and people pay for whatever interest they have in horses. Without this, there are no horses, and we are all poorer. So be careful of your criticism. Not to say that there are not things to be critical OF in the horse industry, poor horsemanship and poor horse care is always an issue. But these things are often found in people’s back yards, perhaps less than in a very public and scrutinized parts of the industry. Try to be less judgemental of parts of the industry that you may not understand fully.

Just like the PMU industry, just being PART of a criticized industry does not necessarily mean that the people involved are not good horsemen, nor care greatly about the horses in their care. Yes, the foals are produced. Yes, they are available for sale. Yes, there are risks and expenses involved. As a skilled and experienced horseman yourself, you knew this going in to the transaction. If you did not know this, you are learning it now.

Good luck with your foal.

nancy, how did you surmise that I am angry…or an angry horse owner for that matter??? I am just trying to get information about a foal I adopted, I did not purchaser her.

[Briggsie]

@Simkie

Do you have a vet hospital nearby that can scope the foal? Has a culture and sensitivity been done on the drainage? That’s where I’d go next.

You know the whole “nurse mare foal” thing is hogwash, right? Here’s a thread on it: https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…act-or-fiction

Simkie…that’s actually the next step! Just found out today that’s what my vet wants to do…

[NancyM]

@Briggsie

nancy, how did you surmise that I am angry…or an angry horse owner for that matter??? I am just trying to get information about a foal I adopted, I did not purchaser her.

Horses are “chattel”, they are bought and sold and leased. Children are adopted. “Rescue” is a catch word to appeal to a certain type of person, to facilitate a sale of a horse. They may not tell you that when you become a client. A “Rescue” is a low end horse dealer. A “horse dealer” is a person or organization who offers many different horses for sale. A dealer may or may not be profitable, and may or may not have a return policy should the horse you purchase and undertake to own fail to meet your requirements. The “equine industry” is dependant on the exchange of cash, and the value (emotional and economic) a person puts on a horse that they wish to purchase and own, and the care that they take of that horse, and the services they purchase from vets, transport companies, farriers, trainers, coaches, riders etc. People purchase a horse for a reason… to compete, for recreational purposes, for resale, to engage in some aspect of the horse industry that appeals to them. If participating in the horse industry does not appeal to a person, they do not purchase a horse, do not have these expenses associated with owning, training and caring for a horse. Purchase price may be high, low, or zero dollars (though a payment and a receipt for $1 is usually a good idea to acquire to prove ownership at a later date to avoid a legal mess). Horse dealers of any level may or may not be of good character, may or may not be honest, may or may not be good horsemen, may or may not care about the horses they have available. There is no emotion or judgement involved when discussing a “horse dealer”.

Since the horse meat industry operates on a quota basis and on the value and desire by humans of the meat and byproducts, there is no such thing as “rescue” of a horse. If you purchase a horse who would otherwise have gone to the meat buyers, the meat buyers simply purchase another horse to fill that horse’s place, to make up their quota. Net “rescue” of horses due to the purchase of your horse equals “zero”. Another horse, who may have otherwise found a good long term home with a loving owner, goes for meat instead because of your purchase. So it is important to always choose wisely the horse you buy/acquire. You buy the horse because of whatever motivates you. The meat industry buys what else is available at the right price. The meat industry is a part of the equine industry, and can be viewed as the ultimate “rescue” of cheap horses from owners who do not value them. Unfortunately, humans can not be forced to value things they own, even living things like horses. Things change, horses acquired sometimes lose value to their owners and owners lose interest in the horses. Value can be emotional value, and/or economic value. Horses without value to their owners are often for sale cheap.

If you have purchased a horse from an unfortunate situation, where it had little or no value to it’s previous owner, was not being well taken care of and it is currently in poor health at time of purchase, the question is… what is your motivation? Is it because you see potential in that horse, as a potentially successful competition or recreational horse with your care and training? As a resale prospect once it’s problems are solved and health improved? Or as a pet for you to keep forever? All these are acceptable options, if you have the cash and horsemanship skills to successfully get it done. The “rescue complex” is also a driving force for some people, to do something inherently “good” for another being in an unfortunate situation by taking over it’s care and maintenance in ownership. Unfortunately, there is more to raising, caring for, and owning and training a young horse than just acquiring it with good intentions. Buyers with only good intentions and a rescue complex and no horsemanship skills or planned careers for their young horses tend to fail more often than those who do have horsemanship skills and career plans. The meat industry often ends up “rescuing” these horses from this situation at some later point. Thus my question about your motivation.

Your post indicated that “foals are ripped from their mothers”. This emotional input on the nurse mare industry leads one to suspect that you are in some way “against” or “disapproving” of the nurse mare industry. I merely pointed out that the nurse mare industry is part and parcel with the rest of the equine industry, and not in itself “good” or “bad”, but is dependant on the value of a nurse mare to a horse owner whose mare has tragically and unexpectedly died in foaling, or who has rejected her foal and that foal is at risk, and needs a surrogate mare in order for that foal to have a mother, and the owner is prepared to pay $ to remedy that situation. Do you lack empathy for that orphaned or rejected foal, just because their owner is rich? And yes, it does mean that another foal is hand raised by humans, instead of the one whose mother died or failed as a mother. But at least the nurse mare owner has prepared for this occurrence in advance, foals receive colostrum and several days of natural milk and bonding, and organization is in place to provide milk replacer, care, the company of other nurse mare foals in the same situation, and marketing of these foals to potential owners like you. The nurse mare foal is not a full Thoroughbred foal with a future as a racehorse. (Raising a racehorse really requires the normal foalhood relationship between dam and foal MORE so than riding horses do, to encourage competitive instinct required to race). The nurse mare foal has the genetics of a dam with good characteristics to make a good riding horse, and the genetics from a sire from usually a top class breeding farm (who breeds the nurse mare back to one of their stallions while in their care). The quality of the breeding stock is often substantially better than many foals bred by the non nurse mare industry. These foals are not of low quality, they have the potential for value (economic and emotional value) for their new owners.

Good luck with your sick foal. Foals often get sick when transported, and when subjected to stress. Nurse mare foals do have sources of stress that other foals may not have. Foals who are sick should not be transported or sold until they are well again. With good care and veterinary assistance, they often recover fully. The immune systems of young foals are by nature not well developed yet, there are pathogens in new places that they do not yet have immunity. Your farm has pathogens that this foal did not have immunity to in advance of coming to your farm. The trailer that brought your foal also had pathogens. It is common for previously healthy foals to become ill when they get to their new homes. Viral infections turn into bacterial infections quickly. This is expected when foals or young horses are transported, sold, taken to horse shows or foal inspections, with or without their mothers. Just like kids going to kindergarten.

[Raincityrider]

Yikes.

[Briggsie]

@NancyM

Horses are “chattel”, they are bought and sold and leased. Children are adopted. “Rescue” is a catch word to appeal to a certain type of person, to facilitate a sale of a horse. They may not tell you that when you become a client. A “Rescue” is a low end horse dealer. A “horse dealer” is a person or organization who offers many different horses for sale. A dealer may or may not be profitable, and may or may not have a return policy should the horse you purchase and undertake to own fail to meet your requirements. The “equine industry” is dependant on the exchange of cash, and the value (emotional and economic) a person puts on a horse that they wish to purchase and own, and the care that they take of that horse, and the services they purchase from vets, transport companies, farriers, trainers, coaches, riders etc. People purchase a horse for a reason… to compete, for recreational purposes, for resale, to engage in some aspect of the horse industry that appeals to them. If participating in the horse industry does not appeal to a person, they do not purchase a horse, do not have these expenses associated with owning, training and caring for a horse. Purchase price may be high, low, or zero dollars (though a payment and a receipt for $1 is usually a good idea to acquire to prove ownership at a later date to avoid a legal mess). Horse dealers of any level may or may not be of good character, may or may not be honest, may or may not be good horsemen, may or may not care about the horses they have available. There is no emotion or judgement involved when discussing a “horse dealer”.

Since the horse meat industry operates on a quota basis and on the value and desire by humans of the meat and byproducts, there is no such thing as “rescue” of a horse. If you purchase a horse who would otherwise have gone to the meat buyers, the meat buyers simply purchase another horse to fill that horse’s place, to make up their quota. Net “rescue” of horses due to the purchase of your horse equals “zero”. Another horse, who may have otherwise found a good long term home with a loving owner, goes for meat instead because of your purchase. So it is important to always choose wisely the horse you buy/acquire. You buy the horse because of whatever motivates you. The meat industry buys what else is available at the right price. The meat industry is a part of the equine industry, and can be viewed as the ultimate “rescue” of cheap horses from owners who do not value them. Unfortunately, humans can not be forced to value things they own, even living things like horses. Things change, horses acquired sometimes lose value to their owners and owners lose interest in the horses. Value can be emotional value, and/or economic value. Horses without value to their owners are often for sale cheap.

If you have purchased a horse from an unfortunate situation, where it had little or no value to it’s previous owner, was not being well taken care of and it is currently in poor health at time of purchase, the question is… what is your motivation? Is it because you see potential in that horse, as a potentially successful competition or recreational horse with your care and training? As a resale prospect once it’s problems are solved and health improved? Or as a pet for you to keep forever? All these are acceptable options, if you have the cash and horsemanship skills to successfully get it done. The “rescue complex” is also a driving force for some people, to do something inherently “good” for another being in an unfortunate situation by taking over it’s care and maintenance in ownership. Unfortunately, there is more to raising, caring for, and owning and training a young horse than just acquiring it with good intentions. Buyers with only good intentions and a rescue complex and no horsemanship skills or planned careers for their young horses tend to fail more often than those who do have horsemanship skills and career plans. The meat industry often ends up “rescuing” these horses from this situation at some later point. Thus my question about your motivation.

Your post indicated that “foals are ripped from their mothers”. This emotional input on the nurse mare industry leads one to suspect that you are in some way “against” or “disapproving” of the nurse mare industry. I merely pointed out that the nurse mare industry is part and parcel with the rest of the equine industry, and not in itself “good” or “bad”, but is dependant on the value of a nurse mare to a horse owner whose mare has tragically and unexpectedly died in foaling, or who has rejected her foal and that foal is at risk, and needs a surrogate mare in order for that foal to have a mother, and the owner is prepared to pay $ to remedy that situation. Do you lack empathy for that orphaned or rejected foal, just because their owner is rich? And yes, it does mean that another foal is hand raised by humans, instead of the one whose mother died or failed as a mother. But at least the nurse mare owner has prepared for this occurrence in advance, foals receive colostrum and several days of natural milk and bonding, and organization is in place to provide milk replacer, care, the company of other nurse mare foals in the same situation, and marketing of these foals to potential owners like you. The nurse mare foal is not a full Thoroughbred foal with a future as a racehorse. (Raising a racehorse really requires the normal foalhood relationship between dam and foal MORE so than riding horses do, to encourage competitive instinct required to race). The nurse mare foal has the genetics of a dam with good characteristics to make a good riding horse, and the genetics from a sire from usually a top class breeding farm (who breeds the nurse mare back to one of their stallions while in their care). The quality of the breeding stock is often substantially better than many foals bred by the non nurse mare industry. These foals are not of low quality, they have the potential for value (economic and emotional value) for their new owners.

Good luck with your sick foal. Foals often get sick when transported, and when subjected to stress. Nurse mare foals do have sources of stress that other foals may not have. Foals who are sick should not be transported or sold until they are well again. With good care and veterinary assistance, they often recover fully. The immune systems of young foals are by nature not well developed yet, there are pathogens in new places that they do not yet have immunity. Your farm has pathogens that this foal did not have immunity to in advance of coming to your farm. The trailer that brought your foal also had pathogens. It is common for previously healthy foals to become ill when they get to their new homes. Viral infections turn into bacterial infections quickly. This is expected when foals or young horses are transported, sold, taken to horse shows or foal inspections, with or without their mothers. Just like kids going to kindergarten.

Wow. okay, so glad the other commenters on this post were actually normal and not arm-chair psychologists.

[demidq]

I hope your foal’s health improves soon!
I do think that Nancy M’s post , while lengthy, was spot on tho. I hope you didn’t ‘rescue’ your foal from Laast Chance corral whose marketting strategy and the source of their foals is highly suspect. Read the COTH posts on the subject.

[Briggsie]

@demidq

I hope your foal’s health improves soon!
I do think that Nancy M’s post , while lengthy, was spot on tho. I hope you didn’t ‘rescue’ your foal from Laast Chance corral whose marketting strategy and the source of their foals is highly suspect. Read the COTH posts on the subject.

hey there demidq,
I got mine by happenstance through the Aiken fb page…she was advertised by a foster who helps Dream Equine Therapy…they know of a few nurse mare farms in Kentucky. I think the rescue itself is pretty reputable and they don’t require a 2-foal adoption. In fact, from my perspective, I thought they were very thorough to comb through my references, they called both of my vets, and were overly inquisitive, as they should be. The foster has been great and has been very responsive to answer my questions, as she has experience with the sick foals. I saw pictures of my filly in the barn, so my claims are not unsubstantiated, and I know a few personal friends who have seen where they came from first hand. There was no money made by the rescue…if anything, they took a huge loss.