“Never read a race horse contract. Is there a live foal guarantee?”
“Live foal, stands and nurses” has long been part of a breeding contract for quarter horses. It has only recently been adopted by the Thoroughbred industry and there may still be some instances where it does not apply to some Thoroughbred stallion contracts.
On another note. I recall hearing Secretariat was test bred to a couple of mares, I believe one was an Appy.
[QUOTE=roseymare;8478189]
Got it the insurance is not about keeping fertility, it is as to wether he has it or not.
I would think this type of policy will eventually phase itself out.[/QUOTE]
This, I don’t think so. IMO, it is there to protect the insurance company against fraud by insuring a breeding stallion only to find out that it was a well hidden secret the stallion wouldn’t cover or impregnate the mare…
Coolmore America: We just got this fancy new stallion, American Pharoah. We want to insure him as a breeding stallion.
Insurance company: Ok. Far as you know, he has no reason to not be able to cover or impregnate a more, does he?
Coolmore: Nope
Insurance company: Got it, he’s insured.
Insurance company doesn’t want it coming out at this point that it was “known” that he couldn’t get mares pregnant as they would still have to pay out. I’d call this insurance fraud. I am sure a very, very simplified version of what happened and maybe not even close to an accurate representation.
The timing of actually covering a mare, test or not, is really to protect the insurance company against an expensive policy on a horse with a known problem (preexisting condition as it were).
Once he’s covered with no known problems, then if there is a problem, insurance would pay out and take possession of the horse (I think that was Cigar that happened to).
Why wouldn’t the insurance company just require fertility testing and a demonstration that the stallion can physically mount in order to mitigate the risk. Then the only risk factor for the insurance company is wether the mares settle.
It is an antiquated tradition to blindly insure them. But since infertility is rather rare in young stallions and the premiums are I assume expensive it is as of now still working. If there is a rash of payouts on stallions who are infertile I would think it would change.
And I still think there are probably two policies involved. A new one is probably written for loss of use as a stallion after fertility is established.
[QUOTE=Sunlight Star;8478475]
On another note. I recall hearing Secretariat was test bred to a couple of mares, I believe one was an Appy.[/QUOTE]
This is true - the resulting Appy foal’s name was First Secretary.
Cigar was test bred most of his springs, in the hopes that he possibly had increased motility.
Another point to consider regarding insurance, is perhaps a no test was part of the contract to stand AP. Coolmore acquired the rights a year ago, before the triple crown win was ever a consideration. Its possible a reduced price in the stud farm contract or insuring the stud farm contract was offered on a no test breed policy.
I agree I think that these policies are all written differently with specifications for each individual stallion. And there may be other contracts involved in the no test breeding- not only insurance.
[QUOTE=Jim R;8475193]
IIRC when the Ovaries were removed they are always in heat. Overrectimized (spelling)Doesn’t go in and out just stays in.
Then you always have a tease mare.[/QUOTE]
Jim , I think you have that backward. The purpose of removing ovaries is to prevent estrus, not establish a permanent state of estrus.
Regarding test mares, there are quite a few foals out of nonTB mares that were bred to famous stallions. IIRC one was named rather aptly First Secretary. 
And either he or one of his get showed in dressage in the MD-PA area.
http://pastthegrandstand.blogspot.com/2013/07/first-secretary-spotted-secretariat.html
A certain percentage of mares do actually become permantly in estrus after ovariectemy.
See post 13
Took me a while to get it through my thick skull.
If removing Ovaries had the effect of no estrus I know all kinds of people that would do this to their mare.
Not all ovx mares are permanently in heat. I am not sure of the percentages. The ones that do have exogenous estrogen production then become jump mares. It is not typically the other way around.
Most people can’t justify the cost of spaying unless she is evil and also don’t want to give up the breeding chance. Although I would counter that maybe evil mares shouldn’t be bred.
The ovx mares I have seen don’t really exhibit anything more than just total receptiveness to stallions. But maybe those who were evil were weeded out.
AP has been test bred. We asked the stallion manager that very question when visited last week. They said he is very professional in his new job. I would think they would have taken a peak under the microscope at a sample. However, we didn’t ask them that.
[QUOTE=Easytimes;8480070]
AP has been test bred. We asked the stallion manager that very question when visited last week. They said he is very professional in his new job. I would think they would have taken a peak under the microscope at a sample. However, we didn’t ask them that.[/QUOTE]
That was probably smart!
I remember from reading Country Life Diary when the farm was negotiating the purchase of a new stallion. They hadn’t even seen the stallion yet - still at the track, I think, brand new ex-racehorse. The author said when it came to making the final decision to buy stallion or not something to the words of “if he passes a physical exam of his testicles and is insurable,” yes, they would buy. Call back, stallion passed, farm said great, put him on the truck. All of his breeding lessons came a few months later in the spring. They did use an experienced mare for his first few jumps then. Cases may vary, but that book at least made it sound like insurance is written based on, “Yep, the required parts of anatomy are here,” rather than lab tests.
^^ I suspect that a microscope slide was in use in use at that PPE. There is more than one entirely there stallion that shoots blanks.
[QUOTE=Sunlight Star;8478475]
… On another note. I recall hearing Secretariat was test bred to a couple of mares, I believe one was an Appy.[/QUOTE]
The 2nd was a draft mare, the foal was named Statesman and was a sporthorse stallion for several years before he was gelded:
http://www.crsporthorses.com/statesman.html
[QUOTE=DoubleClick;8475645]
Haha! So do dog people involved in conformation. “This bitch was Winner’s Bitch. That bitch stayed home last weekend,” really gets some looks, too :)[/QUOTE]
" That Black Bitch was AWSOME :-)!!! As we sat at Craker Barrell with a table of Afro Amer behind us!!!
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