AQHA is promoting "extension of the gaits" aimed at judges!

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Ruby2shoes;7023089]
My rehabbing wp one hot crimson baby stifle surgery horse is spur stop trained. It’s not difficult to utilize and not confusing to him as we retrain him to extend and move out and be healthier on his joints. I like it in fact and I’m prepared to get ripped into about it. It’s a nice thing to apply a constant pressure with legs and have him stop. Legs are fine. Spurs make the job easier but aren’t really necessary. This is how he was trained and is in fact one of the only aspects of his training that I do not resent. Most of the other things that were done to him contributed to his lameness. He stops with the reins. He stops with a “whoa” but if you want to sit deep and ask with (assertive) pressure from both calves or (lightly) spurs, he will do that too. It’s not a big deal or a frustrating issue in his retraining to be a normal moving horse. In fact… Oh no what have I done!!!.. I have trained my ottb some “spur stopping” too. Meaning instead of hauling on his mouth as my only option when he’s high strung and not giving a rats ass about my seat or voice or half halts, I have another tool to put into play. Not sure what the huge flaming attack on spur stop is but when used appropriately it’s a lot more humane than putting a bit into play. And really? It’s pretty common so if you don’t even know that much about it maybe relax a little on the fireball posts until you educate yourself a bit more first.[/QUOTE]

A spur stop isn’t cruel, it’s just neither common nor particularly useful to anyone trained classically. Choosing it would be akin to what I tell my friends that clicker train…whatever works for you, you’re just not doing what most other folks do. As was said by someone earlier, you can cue canter by whistling dixie if you’d like. If you ever need to rehome your horses (anyone can lose a job or get hit by a bus), you’re not using “normal” cues.

Fill yer boots though if it works for you.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7022816]
Amen.
I asked my helper if I should use spurs on my horse- he rides my horse in spurs.
He replied that I’d just p!$$ my horse off.

A week later, at the Buck Brannaman clinic, I heard Buck state that, “A little kick is not a feel. A little squeeze is not a feel”.
And at that point, I knew that until I could get my horse on the aids, ‘in front of my leg’, spurs would simply dull him, or make him mad.
I’m looking forward to someday wearing boot jewelry, but I understand that I don’t get to wear spurs on my horse until I don’t need spurs on my horse to keep him in front of my leg. In other words, I can wear spurs when I won’t use them very much at all. Which doesn’t mean that a more clued-in rider wouldn’t appropriately wear them on my horse.

Anyway, Amen, Aktill![/QUOTE]

The bit about the small aids is gold. He’s making the point that just installing tiny buttons isn’t the same as having feel, which I had tried to make back on the other thread. A bridle horse isn’t just a horse with sensitive buttons, it’s a horse that embodies softness and feel.

Buck sure has a way with words, that’s for sure. It’s folks like him who make you want to be worthy of your horse, rather than using your horse to earn accolades. Humbling!

It’s funny, when I rode with him I was too nervous to show up with spurs, having heard his speeches about making sure you don’t need them. Have to earn your spurs there, to put it mildly.

When I rode with Richard Caldwell, he politely inquired as to why I WASN’T wearing them. He said they were just as important as any bit or saddle, and that by not wearing them you were denying the horse the clarity that they can sometimes bring. They also demand that you not get lazy, so with a different twist, you need to earn them there too.

Good fun! It’s amazing how useful the jinglebobs are as a metronome too.

[Ruby2shoes]

[QUOTE=aktill;7023124]
A spur stop isn’t cruel, it’s just neither common nor particularly useful to anyone trained classically. Choosing it would be akin to what I tell my friends that clicker train…whatever works for you, you’re just not doing what most other folks do. As was said by someone earlier, you can cue canter by whistling dixie if you’d like. If you ever need to rehome your horses (anyone can lose a job or get hit by a bus), you’re not using “normal” cues.

Fill yer boots though if it works for you.[/QUOTE]

Clicker training is not comparable. Not in any way shape or form. Clicker training is using a sound and usually food to have the horse identify what we want it to do. It’s pointless to me personally bc I can say good horse and pat it on the neck and not have a clicker to mess with. Oh boy classical training. They’re can be so many aspects of this term and I dare say neither of us are the authority. But i wouldnt worry about it if i were you. The good thing is you never have to ride my easy to stop light on the reins aid horses;)

[Ruby2shoes]

Like its such a hard cue to use? Not at all. Very simple. And it’s only a refining cue. He stops with reins or seat or whoa. And just wondering if I’m doing what most over people do except it’s not common, (And I’ll tell you it is common here) how does your thought process here hold any logic? I’m not claiming to be the frickin authority on spur stop but what I get sick of on this forum are people going ape shit crazy about every dang thing that wasn’t classically trained to them personally or in their little circle of horse knowledge. Their does exist in this sport like in every other aspect of this life, different ways of doing things. Some are new and will stick. Some are fads. Some cause horrible after effects and some, whether you like it or not are just different people doing thing different from you and doing it just as well if not better. God forbid I start posting the canter now;)

[OneGrayPony]

I think the point aktill is trying to make is that typically legs and spurs mean go.

That being said, it is incorrect. The different disciplines all use different nuances to the aids. Hunters use a gentle hug all of the time with the leg, clear down to the calf and a harder squeeze for go forward. They typically do not use the seat as an aid except for on the flat because the horse needs to understand go while they are out of the tack, which is typically the way one rides a hunter course, or used to before the influx of the warmbloods who don’t typically ride well that way. With a TB it was out of the tack, out of the mouth, and teach them vs pushing them every step. Totally different ride.

In dressage, you start with the seat, and the leg is a light tap, reinforced with the whip if the horse fails to listen to the first two aids. The spur for a hunter is generally meant to be a nudge to more forward motion. In dressage it’s a refinement laterally and is not used for go.

In Western Pleasure the “kicks” are really taps as in dressage (unless the person is an abusive jerk) and the spurs are pressed rather than poked. I suspect that the spur stop is also a logical aid given that the hind legs are supposed to step under in a halt, and without much forward motion, you need the leg to activate the hindquarter. However I will say that even a dressage horse halts with leg in addition to reins.

I will say that I think things that are damaging to the horse include riding the front end and not the back end, as many dressage riders are doing at the lower levels. I’m not a fan of changing a horse’s shoeing to change their way of going (outside of therapeutic usage).

All disciplines have nuances.

They also have dirt. At least the AQHA is trying to clean this one up. The rollkur debate still enrages me and I am not happy with what I see in competitive dressage at all. I also don’t like the hunters LTD or the eventers who overface their horses. WP seems to be a common whipping boy here because historically this has been an English sporthorse board. If I saw a TB or a Saddlebred naturally loping like these WP horses do I would definitely assume it was broken.

Whoever mentioned that they were frightened that a slow moving horse would do well in RP, that’s not what happened at the last show. It was dominated by the reiners. The actual ranch horses didn’t seem to do very well, and neither did the slow moving horses. So…there you have it.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Ruby2shoes;7023326]
Clicker training is not comparable. Not in any way shape or form. Clicker training is using a sound and usually food to have the horse identify what we want it to do. It’s pointless to me personally bc I can say good horse and pat it on the neck and not have a clicker to mess with. Oh boy classical training. They’re can be so many aspects of this term and I dare say neither of us are the authority. But i wouldnt worry about it if i were you. The good thing is you never have to ride my easy to stop light on the reins aid horses;)[/QUOTE]

Clicker training is most definitely comparable since its using a non-standard teaching method compared to the mainstream negative reinforcement methods. I’ve studied the method extensively, though I don’t choose to use it. I’ve also watched a number of clicker horses go on to non clicker homes, and the horses tend to struggle a bit. Ergo my comparison.

As to your taking this all personally, if the shoe fits, wear it. If not, wasn’t talking about your horses anyway!

[aktill]

Josh Nichol uses a good analogy when describing how most people train horses these days, and that’s calling them “poke training”. If you want the horse to do something, you poke him in a particular spot.

If I was in a room with someone and I wanted to get them to stand up out of their chair, I could walk over and start poking them in the ribs. They’d probably get up at some point if they didn’t flat out deck me, but even if I did so rather lightly they’d probably be a little put out.

If I poked them for every request i made of them, they’d likely start to harbour some degree of resentment after a while.

If instead I ASKED them to get up in a way that we both understood, and especially if they were a friend, there wouldn’t likely be that same feeling.

So again, to each their own.

[saddleup]

I’ve weighed in about riding a spur stop trained horse before, but here goes.

I have one. He came that way. I show in all-around events at Paint shows. That means trail, horsemanship, western riding, and also hunter under saddle and equitation. I have an english background, showed hunters for years, and when I switched to predominately western events and got this horse I also thought it was weird to use the spur to mean slow down and to reinforce a stop.

But guess what? My horse knows full well the difference between moving out in english classes and slowing down in western. It’s not a big deal, it hasn’t blown his mind, I just have to be very specific, which is a good thing, isn’t it?

Now, last summer when I took him out on his first trail ride in the mountains he tried to do his slow “show ring/Western horse” walk and I needed to use my legs to get him to move out, to tell him the job description had changed yet again.

He figured that out, too, and now has a ground covering, lovely, gotta-get-somewhere-quick walk when we go on trail rides. When I go back into the arena he can tell the difference, and adjusts. Basically he’s smart enough to be an all around horse.

The spur stop is just a tool, it’s not evil, it’s not contrary to the laws of nature. It’s definitely different from the way I always rode before. But honestly, learning how to ride on a draped rein on a western horse was much more challenging than figuring out how to carefully use the spur. I missed the contact.

[OneGrayPony]

If instead I ASKED them to get up in a way that we both understood, and especially if they were a friend, there wouldn’t likely be that same feeling.

Absolutely, but what I’m saying is that this is contrary to every other method of training out there with the exception of clicker training.

Very few people understand intention and preparation. And when you have a horse that goes like that, and someone else gets on him, the clash of aids is immediate and problematic. My TB for me was mellow (in the arena…but that’s another story) walked, trotted and cantered on an intention and a shift in the lightness or the heaviness of my seat. When others would ride him, they’d use leg aids which were like yelling at him. I had made him too sensitive for the majority of our riders.

[Ruby2shoes]

[QUOTE=aktill;7023718]
Clicker training is most definitely comparable since its using a non-standard teaching method compared to the mainstream negative reinforcement methods. I’ve studied the method extensively, though I don’t choose to use it. I’ve also watched a number of clicker horses go on to non clicker homes, and the horses tend to struggle a bit. Ergo my comparison.

As to your taking this all personally, if the shoe fits, wear it. If not, wasn’t talking about your horses anyway![/QUOTE]

It’s non standard to you. I’m not offended nor do I feel personally attacked. Just wanted to point out that spur stop training isn’t really so big of a deal to rip the concept apart and try to make an over arching statement that it will cause difficulty for new owners or retraining. It’s different from what you were taught. Just like posting the canter that was blown up into a huge battle over in hunter jumperville. Not what I was taught but that doesn’t make it impossible that it is an effective technique. Just because we’ve always done something some specific way does NOT mean we always have to or even that we should do it that same way. That’s the beauty of life we can make changes:) and we don’t have to bitterly condemn people who do things differently than ourselves. And on a seperate topic, riding a western pleasure horse? Not so easy as it would appear. And one heck of a lower body workout.

[longride1]

Which brings me back to my second question. Pleasure horse is by definition an EASY horse to ride. No effort required. My dressage horses at 4th level fit this definition. Think and it happened. No effort required. Beginner or advanced, any rider, any level could ride them and enjoy it. A skilful sophisticated rider could do all the upper level movements. Doing them completely correctly took knowledge, but it wasn’t because the horses were hard to ride. So why do people brag about how hard it is to ride a top WP horse? Surely this is backwards? Shouldn’t it be easy, not hard? And no body part should feel like it is getting a workout. Most stock type horses using their bodies optimally for carrying a rider are easy to sit even at a big trot.

[OneGrayPony]

longride, have you ever put a beginner on a GP dressage horse? All kinds of buttons get pushed that they don’t mean to push. Are you suggesting that a beginner could get on a GP horse and ride a test successfully?

WP horses are a pleasure to ride in that they are easy to ride if you know how to ride them. It’s not supposed to look effortful. Very similar to hunters. It’s supposed to look like you could put grandma on and ride the same course… Doesn’t mean you actually can.

[Ruby2shoes]

The spur stop is just a tool, it’s not evil, it’s not contrary to the laws of nature. It’s definitely different from the way I always rode before. But honestly, learning how to ride on a draped rein on a western horse was much more challenging than figuring out how to carefully use the spur. I missed the contact.[/QUOTE

Yep my experience too. I always thought it must be so easy bc it looks so easy to ride a wp horse. The balance is very different from my hs background and it is a workout. Using muscles I never knew I had to appear as if I were floating on his back. Without using reins or any visible aids at all. Not so easy as I thought.

[Ruby2shoes]

And I don’t think anyone here was bragging about how hard it is to ride a wp horse. Least I didn’t intend that or read that in the other posts. Just clarifying that there is a finesse to it and it definitely take some effort to have a flawless ride. I can slap my 7 year old on the qhs back and send them in the ring and he will walk jog lope on the rail and my kid really only has to think and this horse will do. But it won’t be a winning round unless my kid puts in his own homework.

[OneGrayPony]

You know what has flipped me out about riding my HUS horse that is maybe better suited to WP or RP (still not sure based on where he is training wise) is how flexible my back has to be and then secondly how close together all the buttons are. I accidentally put him into reverse often. Sometimes I’ll get a good turn on the haunches, but if my leg moves a fraction of an inch I’ve got a haunches in or a reverse on a curve.

I have to find the trainer I was watching before who was talking about flexibility mid-neck. That is my horse’s issue. He seems in general to be stiff to the right (meaning that the left side of his body needs to elongate) and though his withers lift, he holds tension about half-way up his neck.

[Ruby2shoes]

[QUOTE=OneGrayPony;7024354]
You know what has flipped me out about riding my HUS horse that is maybe better suited to WP or RP (still not sure based on where he is training wise) is how flexible my back has to be and then secondly how close together all the buttons are. I accidentally put him into reverse often. Sometimes I’ll get a good turn on the haunches, but if my leg moves a fraction of an inch I’ve got a haunches in or a reverse on a curve.

I have to find the trainer I was watching before who was talking about flexibility mid-neck. That is my horse’s issue. He seems in general to be stiff to the right (meaning that the left side of his body needs to elongate) and though his withers lift, he holds tension about half-way up his neck.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you’ve already thought about this but my qh is doing wonderfully with a horse physical therapist. She has me doing stretching and long line work with him and I’m amazed at how much it’s helping with all his issues.

[longride1]

No, I’m not suggesting a beginner could ride a grand prix test, though lord knows I’ve seen riders at shows that seem to fit that description. What I’m saying is that a beginner could get on my horses and enjoy the ride. My horses understood intent, and matched their sensitivity to the knowledge of the rider. So I could work on Grand Prix movements with Felicitas or WAZ and put a beginner on for a lesson the next day. They ignored muddled aids and understood deliberate combinations or sequences. My TB increased energy with a simple hardening of my calf against his side combined with seat. No tapping needed and the QH mare was just as sensitive. But beginners could bump their legs all over the place. One QH gelding I had would make his own decisions about how advanced a rider was. A total beginner could get him to canter with broad aids and little seat. Then one day the horse would decide the rider had the balance to do better, and he wouldn’t canter at all until the aid was given correctly from seat and leg. All of these horses showed and won against top horses at recognized USEF shows, though I’ll admit not at Grand Prix. I had neither the time or budget to show my own horses. But they WERE pleasure horses in the true sense of the word. Fully dressaged and easy to ride.

[Plumcreek]

[QUOTE=OneGrayPony;7024056]
longride, have you ever put a beginner on a GP dressage horse? All kinds of buttons get pushed that they don’t mean to push. Are you suggesting that a beginner could get on a GP horse and ride a test successfully?

WP horses are a pleasure to ride in that they are easy to ride if you know how to ride them. It’s not supposed to look effortful. Very similar to hunters. It’s supposed to look like you could put grandma on and ride the same course… Doesn’t mean you actually can.[/QUOTE]

The above is very true. Getting a greener or less conformationally perfect horse to top WP form is hard work with your body. With a top finished WP horse, the trainer’s challenge is to get a novice owner/rider to sit there staying out of the way and NOT push random buttons. I basically use a “spur stop”, except that, because I usually ride alone, I don’t wear spurs (that have gotten me bucked off hard after trying to stay on by heel grip after a half-fall stumble) - use my calf and leg instead.

[Willesdon]

And while looking at dressage, do remember how much that has changed since Reiner Klimke and Alerich won their medals in 1984. Maybe the problem with WP is that it hasn’t evolved while the rest of the world learns more of horse physiology etc and does move on.

[OneGrayPony]

No, I’m not suggesting a beginner could ride a grand prix test, though lord knows I’ve seen riders at shows that seem to fit that description. What I’m saying is that a beginner could get on my horses and enjoy the ride. My horses understood intent, and matched their sensitivity to the knowledge of the rider. So I could work on Grand Prix movements with Felicitas or WAZ and put a beginner on for a lesson the next day.

Huh. That hasn’t been my experience with Schoolmasters in dressage. Typically they are considered good teachers because when you hit the wrong button they actually do something. Witness the 15 gajillion threads on that in the dressage forum.