Arabians & Endurance

[Auventera_Two]

@SMUK;2524136

To really assess the merits of other breeds vs arabs, one would have to set up an experiment whereby say 3 or four top international riders each take on a different breed for training and then go for a 100 miler. That would be the true test.

Actually, the “true test” has already been completed and the results are in. Arabians are the #1 competition horse for endurance riders. Years and years of data proves this point.

I always root for the under dog, and I love it when I see some other breed excel in something it wasn’t bred for. We all love that. It gives us that warmy fuzzy that Seabiscuit did, or Alec with the Black Stallion, or the pig in Charlotte’s Web. Humans love for an underdog to win.

But that really doesn’t change the fact that Arabians have been the breed of choice for distance riders since the inception of the sport.

[Eventer55]

Credit where credit is due

Yep, if you look up Geronimo’s Warrior you will see that he did indeed win the Jim Jones stallion award 5 yrs running and logged in more than 10,000 miles with AERC.

[Renae]

[QUOTE=SMUK;2524136]

To really assess the merits of other breeds vs arabs, one would have to set up an experiment whereby say 3 or four top international riders each take on a different breed for training and then go for a 100 miler. That would be the true test.[/QUOTE]

The U.S. Army used to do such tests wen horses were still used for calvary to decide what breed to invest in to upgrade calvary stock. The winners were consistently Arabians, with Morgans and Thoroughbreds and the occasional Saddlebred doing well.

[Auventera_Two]

@Eventer55;2524307

Yep, if you look up Geronimo’s Warrior you will see that he did indeed win the Jim Jones stallion award 5 yrs running and logged in more than 10,000 miles with AERC.

But she said that he passed every single vet check. Failing a vet check means getting pulled from a ride, so I assume that this horse has never failed to complete any ride - ever? In all his 10,000 miles?

[system]

[QUOTE=Renae;2524341]
The U.S. Army used to do such tests wen horses were still used for calvary to decide what breed to invest in to upgrade calvary stock. The winners were consistently Arabians, with Morgans and Thoroughbreds and the occasional Saddlebred doing well.[/QUOTE]

It is also known that the Army had to resort to using Mustangs to even be able to keep up with the Native Americans. The cavalry mounts just couldn’t keep up with the tough Indian ponies, which were none other than the original Spanish horses…, the cavalry mounts of the day could not survive on bark, moss and scrub out on the prairies, nor could they cope with the footing.

I still think that it is very much a personal choice which breed to go for, but I do believe if a Spanish Mustang were to be trained by a top endurance rider, there would not be much between the arab and the Spanish Mustang, neither speed nor endurance wise.
This fact has been proven in the past by Kim Kingsley riding a Spanish Mustang called Chief Yellow Fox
1989 winnings include :
MNDRA Grand Champion Hwt. Endurance
UMECRA Grand Champion Hwt. Endurance
UMECRA High Mile Endurance Horse (1200 miles)
UMECRA High Point Endurance Horse and Stallion
AERC Midwest Region Hwt. Grand Champion
AERC Midwest Region Overall Grand Champion
AERC 2000 Mile Award Recipient
AERC Jim Jones Award Winner (1500 miles)
AERC Top Ten National Senior Mileage (1500 miles)
AERC Top Ten National 100 Miler Award

Kim wrote this about Chief Yellow Fox:
“Fox and I traveled to five different regions of the AERC to ride seven 100 milers, ten 50 milers but due to rider error, we did not finish them. All of this riding took place in six months and two weeks. Fox carried 247 pounds the entire season.”
“We ended up Top Ten in six of the 100 milers and three of the 50 milers. One cannot forget that in order to get all these rides Fox had to be trailered about 15,000 miles, and trailering takes its toll after awhile.”

Kim Kingsley beat mostly arabs in his rides!

I want to ad that Spanish Mustangs are now a rare breed, and that not many breeders or owners are at all competitive. That does not mean that the horses they have could not go out and win an endurance race.

These horses represent a vital part of American history. The USA would not be what it is today without these horses. They are a part of US history to preserve and be proud of. They were the first cow horses, the Pony Express pony, heck they helped discover the continent. Their blood flows through many of the modern American breeds. Every American should be proud of them and support the breed. Arabs are ten a penny and to be found on every corner. The Spanish Mustang used to number 100s of thousands and today there are only about 3000 alive. They are undervalued, underappreciated and underestimated.

Just because every other endurance rider has an arab, doesn’t necessarily mean they are the best endurance breed. It is all down to the individual horse at the end of the day, not forgetting the rider. Just as not every TB can win the tripple crown!

[rainechyldes]

I don’t think anyone is denying that there are spectacular athletes that can come from any breed at some point in time, and they have careers that leave me in awe.

The point for me is that on average most successful and long term endurance horses do tend to be of arabian blood or part bred. Take the list published above of winners of Tevis. I admit I also have more regard for horses that have a career in endurance that spans many years as opposed to the 1-2 year high and then never heard from again/ and that’s regardless of their breeding. Some horses have incredible staying power, those imo are the real ‘heroes’ of the endurance world.

[Simrat]

SMUK forgot to mention Geronimo’s Warrior, 5 time Jim Jones Award winner with over 10,000 AERC miles in 5 years… He is a 13.2 hand SMR registered Spanish Mustang stallion who competed in the heavyweight division ridden in a rope halter. Look him up.

Now THAT’S staying power…

Edited to say…
Guess I should read the whole thread before posting.

[rainechyldes]

you can also find staying power if you look that include arabs:) Harder to find because so many do compete in the sport. I know of more then a few arabian bred horses , whose endurance and CTR’ careers span 20 years, one belongs to our family case in point. I competed with him, my father rode him at CTR national level and 50 milers- and then my much younger sister rode him in LD’s -we retired him for a whole year gasp he’s now being ridden by my son in LD’s. Is he a top ten horse still…no. He used to be. Now he’s a middle of the pack 28 yr old Arabian with a 7 year old riding him.
That’s true endurance, if you ask me:)

[Barbhorses]

"also most of the accidents on the trails seem to be arab horses-----
THis is a very, very broad generalization gathered from a few selected reports. A fallacy in fact, and not very convincing. "

I just started reading this thread. About the above quote…Ummm I keep hearing about Arabs spooking and leaping to their death off of cliffs. I know of one Arab personally that took a leap off a smaller cliff and thankfully just rolled and was still alive. I read about an Arab jumping off a 200 foot cliff cuz he spooked up in Malibu. I also read about an Arab taking a leap off a cliff on the Tevis Cup. I’m sorry, but I would never want to ride a horse that is so unaware of his surroundings to leap to it’s death from being spooked by something. I would ride a Mustang over an Arab any day of the week! From my personal experience, I would never trust an Arab. I have many reasons why I dont like Arabs and are most definitely on my #1 of least favorite breeds. There is a RARE chance when I come across an Arab that I actually like. I can only think of one 20 year old stallion that was not only (for once) eye pleasing to me, but not a nut case and was aware of himself. Whoever bred that horse I hope they are still breeding really nice Arabs! I am sure that the Arab was a great horse when they first starting importing them, but Americans have a tendency of ruining breeds (such as the German Shepherd and a whole other list of breeds) because of money.

My personal favorite breed is the Barb. I love the Mustang as well. One of the best rides I ever had was on a Mustang. NICE horse!

Kim

[rainechyldes]

Put the spooking and jumping off of cliffs in the right context:

Take every Arabian out of the sport- put all mustangs in the sport.
Guess what, you will still have accidents on the trail. Accidents will happen unfortunate, and it is not due to the nature of the breed it’s due to the nature of the sport.

Feel free to ride any breed of horse you want on the trails, no one is saying ‘you must have an arabian to participate’.

It’s a sport. A highly intense one in fact for those of us to play to win. and most riders who do compete seriously will use an Arabian.

Your’ Arabian accident prone’ argument is a ridiculous one.

[rainechyldes]

Also as a complete aside.
the fall at Tevis I believe you are talking of, it the ‘infamous’ fall of 750 feet by Spider.

If you look it up, he stumbled and took a bad step and fell - he did not run off a cliff for no apparent reason. He was also found the next morning by his rider standing on a ledge near the river .
Eight weeks later he completed a 50.

wussy horse huh?

[Astraled]

Way to win friends and influence people, mustang/barb fans :rolleyes:. Running down other breeds is a surefire way to ensure people’ll buy a mustang/barb from you :yes:.

[Simrat]

@Astraled;2526155

Way to win friends and influence people, mustang/barb fans :rolleyes:. Running down other breeds is a surefire way to ensure people’ll buy a mustang/barb from you :yes:.

Please don’t paint all of us Spanish Mustang enthusiasts with the same brush. We are not all like southernhighlander.

There are great horses of every breed and nutcases too! Even though my horses are very different than BLM mustangs, I will never put the BLMs down. Many are very nice and some well trained by their owners. The same goes for Arabs. :yes:

I guess we are just quick to defend our chosen breed and sometimes get over enthusiastic about it. That can come from having horses of a little known and often misunderstood breed. (Yes, they are a breed with a 70 year history that just celebrated the registry’s 50th anniversary! Yeah!)

Go Spanish Mustangs!
Go Arabs!
Go BLM mustangs!

There.

[system]

Yes, I have a part-bred arab mare here myself, and she is lovely!:winkgrin: Produced a cracking Sp. Mustang cross foal this year. Not knocking them at all. My point was only that Spanish Mustangs ARE a recognized breed, and that arabs are not neccessarily the be all and end all for endurance. Other breeds have just as much a chance of succeeding at the top of the sport as arabs do.:yes:

[Dazednconfused]

[QUOTE=SMUK;2526324]
Yes, I have a part-bred arab mare here myself, and she is lovely!:winkgrin: Produced a cracking Sp. Mustang cross foal this year. Not knocking them at all. My point was only that Spanish Mustangs ARE a recognized breed, and that arabs are not neccessarily the be all and end all for endurance. Other breeds have just as much a chance of succeeding at the top of the sport as arabs do.:yes:[/QUOTE]

Prove it. More than two or three horses. Tevis, Quilty, etc - please note where more than a couple of non-Arab horses have won them? Nobody is denying that they can’t be successful - but the chosen breed? Spanish Mustangs are not it by looking at the proof of statistics.

If we were talking hunters (of which there was a topic on this just a couple of weeks ago) - arabians would not be the end all, be all of that sport. For any reason. There are a few that are successful - but don’t expect people to run out and buy arabs for the hunter division. When Tommy Serio, George Morris, Peter Pletcher, use thoroughbreds and warmbloods for their hunter and jumper mounts, that usually tends to mean something - and it’s not “Arabians just haven’t been discovered yet by those people” - it’s about having the right horse for the job :winkgrin:

On the other hand, Arabians have proven themselves for decades upon decades as the superior endurance mount of choice by virtually every top endurance rider in the world - you really think they don’t know what they’re doing? And that arabians aren’t suitable for the job?? Uh, right. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Barbhorses;2525531]"also most of the accidents on the trails seem to be arab horses-----
THis is a very, very broad generalization gathered from a few selected reports. A fallacy in fact, and not very convincing. "

I just started reading this thread. About the above quote…Ummm I keep hearing about Arabs spooking and leaping to their death off of cliffs. I know of one Arab personally that took a leap off a smaller cliff and thankfully just rolled and was still alive. I read about an Arab jumping off a 200 foot cliff cuz he spooked up in Malibu. I also read about an Arab taking a leap off a cliff on the Tevis Cup. I’m sorry, but I would never want to ride a horse that is so unaware of his surroundings to leap to it’s death from being spooked by something. I would ride a Mustang over an Arab any day of the week! From my personal experience, I would never trust an Arab. I have many reasons why I dont like Arabs and are most definitely on my #1 of least favorite breeds. There is a RARE chance when I come across an Arab that I actually like. I can only think of one 20 year old stallion that was not only (for once) eye pleasing to me, but not a nut case and was aware of himself. Whoever bred that horse I hope they are still breeding really nice Arabs! I am sure that the Arab was a great horse when they first starting importing them, but Americans have a tendency of ruining breeds (such as the German Shepherd and a whole other list of breeds) because of money.

My personal favorite breed is the Barb. I love the Mustang as well. One of the best rides I ever had was on a Mustang. NICE horse!

Kim[/QUOTE]

Utter crap. Arabians are still and will always be fabulous creatures, with a few nutjobs here and there. LIKE EVERY BREED ON THE PLANET. That is extremely offensive to those of us who own arabians. You read about a couple of Arabs that fell or supposedly “leapt” off a cliff? Umm, ok, that makes it true :rolleyes: . And even if it is - two or three accidents on the trail out of the thousands of arabians competing and winning and taking fabulous care of their riders/handlers. How ridiculous can you be?! “Arabians throw themselves off cliffs, I read it so it must be true” What kind of crap is that? :mad:

[harvestmoon]

Um, where did they (Simrat and SMUK) say that the Spanish Mustang has performed better than Arabians? They are saying that, given a chance, a Spanish Mustang could do a good job.

I don’t do endurance, but just looking at the results, it’s clear that the Arab is the horse of choice. I don’t think anyone is arguing that (except maybe southernhighlander). But, that’s just how I’m reading it.

[Dazednconfused]

[QUOTE=harvestmoon;2527203]
Um, where did they (Simrat and SMUK) say that the Spanish Mustang has performed better than Arabians? They are saying that, given a chance, a Spanish Mustang could do a good job.

I don’t do endurance, but just looking at the results, it’s clear that the Arab is the horse of choice. I don’t think anyone is arguing that (except maybe southernhighlander). But, that’s just how I’m reading it.[/QUOTE]

Well, no.

Other breeds have just as much a chance of succeeding at the top of the sport as arabs do

No, they don’t. People (of any breed) frequently refuse to admit that there are chosen breeds for different disciplines - almost always for good reason. Warmbloods have been bred for decades to be top dressage horses - there’s no reason an arabian, quarter horse, or pony for example couldn’t make it as a dressage horse, even to the upper levels…but that doesn’t make Anky run out and buy a quarter horse for dressage - we are talking about the top of the sport here (international/Olympic level). That would be the equivalent of Valerie Kanavy running out to buy a spanish mustang for her next endurance mount.

[Pielover]

I’ve been to a lot of rides over the last few years , I’ve seen a handful of Mustangs , maybe 3-4 . I live 10 miles from a BLM holding facility and anyone can go get one for $125 . We have dozens of rides in this area yet 98% of the horses are Arabs or Part- Arabs . If people who compete in endurance , some with 40 year careers ride and breed Arabs there must be a reason for it . Take a look at what the very top riders are riding, it isn’t a BLM horse , it’s an Arab .

I also have 4 neighbors with BLM horses . Everyone has run through a fence not jumped, just run through the fence . Two have to be roped to be caught one can’t be caught . One is now halter broke after a year of Natural Horsemanship . One who runs through fences and has to be roped can be ridden once you catch him . I have yet to see an Arab as crazy as these BLM horses .

[Simrat]

@Pielover;2527971

I’ve been to a lot of rides over the last few years , I’ve seen a handful of Mustangs , maybe 3-4 . I live 10 miles from a BLM holding facility and anyone can go get one for $125 . We have dozens of rides in this area yet 98% of the horses are Arabs or Part- Arabs . If people who compete in endurance , some with 40 year careers ride and breed Arabs there must be a reason for it . Take a look at what the very top riders are riding, it isn’t a BLM horse , it’s an Arab .

I also have 4 neighbors with BLM horses . Everyone has run through a fence not jumped, just run through the fence . Two have to be roped to be caught one can’t be caught . One is now halter broke after a year of Natural Horsemanship . One who runs through fences and has to be roped can be ridden once you catch him . I have yet to see an Arab as crazy as these BLM horses .

One point that SMUK and I are trying to make is that Spanish Mustangs are not BLM horses… but a breed with a long standing history that breeds true and has certain qualities that make it suitable for endurance. The fact that there are only a few thousand in existence, makes it a bit hard to compare their performance againsts other more numerous breeds, like Arabians. I am just asking that people not lump them together with the BLMs in discussion…

And if anyone would like a fun, usually sane mount to ride endurance on, you might consider a Spanish Mustang.

[rainechyldes]

spanish mustangs may be a recognized breed, I don’t believe anyone was ever disputing that point.

I have to repectfully disagree however that they can as a whole out perform the Arabian in distance sports.

The essential truth is, Arabians pure or part bred are dominating the sport and have been for a number of years (a long number) --there’s a reason for that.

Would I trade my arabians for spanish mustangs-- highly doubtful, same as I wouldn’t trade my TB/WB jumper for a (albiet oddly cute) gypsy vanner. I’ve yet to see a gypsy vanner in the international show jumping ring, until then, I’ll keep what works… it’s the same case in point.