Are We Overfeeding/Supplementing?

[Kyrabee]

My horse was on grass hay but I moved her to a barn that has alfalfa/grass (50-50? I think it is more like 60/40 or even 70/30). I had my horse on a ration balancer to up her protein. She doesn’t need that any longer. Now she gets a cup of Unbeetable Forage Only pellets and California Trace plus with a little magnesium and a flax/FO product. She looks great. Her top line is fuller and she sparkles (pretty good for a white horse in winter). I feel she was starting to drop weight on the grass hay. Had we stayed at that barn, I would have had them up her hay. I could have upped the RB too as I was feeding the lower end of the recommended.

Anyway, the ration balancer was not needed with the hefty dose of alfalfa. If it she was still on grass only, I think the ration balancer is the easiest way to go. Most things nicely packaged in one product.

[colorfan]

@JB

We now know that “Monday Morning Sickness” was actually a dietary issue in drafts with PSSM1.

Some years ago I did an equine nutrition program that attributed this to either/and not reducing feed on a non work day and a ‘weekly bran mash’ that basically just upset the digestive system causing diarrhea that people interpreted as ‘cleaning out’?

Does this theory fit with the dietary issues in drafts?

[Pehsness]

I don’t think so, if it’s kept to forage and the balancer/vit-min supplement. I USED to think so, until I finally stuck with a program (recommended amount of omneity religiously) and see a vast improvement in hoof quality and even mane and tail growth.

I used to be guilty of a bit of this, a bit of that (things like boss, flax, oils) and that I do think is unnecessary and potentially harmful.

[Texarkana]

@colorfan

@JB

We now know that “Monday Morning Sickness” was actually a dietary issue in drafts with PSSM1.

Wasn’t this due to either/and not reducing feed on a non work day and a ‘weekly bran mash’ that basically just upset the digestive system causing diarrhea that people interpreted as ‘cleaning out’?

Monday Morning Sickness is tying up.

It’s not a digestive/diarrhea thing.

[RedHorses]

@colorfan

not reducing feed on a non work day

This is the cause of the tying up in PSSM horses. The regular feed turned into increased glycogen stores in the horse, which got dumped into the horse’s muscles when they went to work on Monday morning, and the horse couldn’t break down the glycogen molecules fast enough, causing the tying up.

[Simkie]

@Maude

I guess that I’m questioning the validity of supplementation. For years, we fed horses without ration balances, vitamins and minerals.

Are you familiar with the concept of survivorship bias?

Survivorship bias

It’s pretty normal for all of us to think back and remember the horses that did okay 30-40-50-whatever years ago when we were less aware of their nutritional needs, and not recall the horses that did poorly or had issues that were probably due to poor nutrition and blamed on something else. Those horses definitely existed.

Are some horses over fed and over supplemented? Yes, absolutely. Is that coming from an appropriate amount of ration balancer? No.

Years ago, SmartPak had a tool that asked you questions about your horse and recommended a supplement plan (maybe they still do, idk?) I ran through it once, just curious, and they lined up like 200 bucks a month worth of different stuff, probably a half dozen different joint supplements and calming things and whatever. THAT is over supplementing.

[TWH_Girl]

@Simkie

Years ago, SmartPak had a tool that asked you questions about your horse and recommended a supplement plan (maybe they still do, idk?) I ran through it once, just curious, and they lined up like 200 bucks a month worth of different stuff, probably a half dozen different joint supplements and calming things and whatever. THAT is over supplementing.

Yes they still have this tool, but they give you options of basic up to enhanced support so you can choose.

@Maude

I am just wondering if we’re being brainwashed into thinking horses need more than they really do.

And yes again. But this is no different than the mega marketing of so many things we don’t need in our society but are convinced we somehow do. I guess it just doesn’t matter to me personally if some people fall prey to certain things or if they don’t. Getting through the weeds is harder now than in the past because of marketing and choices everywhere we turn. I do agree with the sentiment that we are better informed now than in the past, and can make better choices regarding feed, nutrition and supplements for our equines.

[Luseride]

We won a tub of supplements and began feeding it to the mare that won it as she is in her late teens. Thirty days later she was crazy! Paso Fino who can be a little reactive but not bad.

Pulled her off of it and it took another thirty days to get her back to normal.

Fed the rest to my older Standardbred with no problem.

You know your horses best and one thing does not fit all. We had a Missouri Foxtrotter that would nut up on sweet feed but was fine on pellets. Same basic nutrition just in a different form. He really made me look and watch for changes in behavior that could be feed related.

[Warmblood1]

I thought this thread was going to be about people who feed 12 quarts of feed a day with 7 added supplements that have no proven benefits. Not judging those that do, but I’m surprised this is about ration balancer. I think RB is one of the smartest things we’ve ever done when it comes to feeding concentrates to horses and I have not come across a readily available and reasonably priced hay yet (with a consistent source) that meets all recommended nutritional needs in my area anyway.

Op, also agree that soy may be an issue for your horse.

[Scribbler]

My education and experience convinces me that horses eating hay benefit a lot from either a ration balancer or a vitamin mineral supplement in a mash, to cover the important minerals and vitamin E. This is not over supplementing, it’s just basic baseline horse care.

But read labels and crunch numbers with your calculator. Many products don’t have enough of what you want, or have things your horse doesn’t need.

If you’re hitting all those bases, you don’t need magnesium calming supplements or biotin hoof formulas or shiny hair supplements etc.

[cayuse]

I agree. Whenever I give my ponies either a ration balancer or vitamins they go bonkers. For the longest time I thought it was my imagination but every time I would stop, they’d regroup their marbles. Then I’d restart the stuff and they’d scatter again. I’ve come to a happy medium of a multi-vitamin every other day. They get Vit E daily plus gastric support. And good quality second cut with some added bagged hay for the old timer. That’s it. It seems to work. They look and feel good.

[JB]

@colorfan

Some years ago I did an equine nutrition program that attributed this to either/and not reducing feed on a non work day and a ‘weekly bran mash’ that basically just upset the digestive system causing diarrhea that people interpreted as ‘cleaning out’?

Does this theory fit with the dietary issues in drafts?

It’s likely the combination of not working on Sunday, plus the high NSC feed. PSSM1 horses really, really benefit from daily exercise. They don’t metabolize starches properly, but can do it better when in the type of work that a lot of the working farm horses are/were in.

The bran mash likely didn’t help, high starch

[Maude]

I’m glad I’m not the only one.

[RhythmNCruise]

I think it’s very easy to fall into the trap of overfeeding and over-supplementing. I’m positive that I have been guilty of this. But I’ve also tried the “just feed 'em good hay” approach as well, and while they can certainly survive and even look pretty healthy for the most part, it’s when you put them on a properly balanced diet and keep them on it for at least a year that you realize the issues that you thought were “just how he/she is” were actually due to nutritional gaps. When the horse stops losing shoes so often or its feet don’t get chipped and cracked up as much or the barefoot horse no longer seems to need hoof boots when ridden on various terrain…that’s when you realize that your feeding regimen is working. When you see dapples for the first time, or just a richer, deeper coat color, and you notice significant mane or tail growth, or there seems to be less sun damage…that’s when you realize that your feeding regimen is working.

The thing is, you don’t need to feed three types of bagged feed and eight tubs of various specialized supplements to achieve this. The best quality hay and/or pasture - yes - is the foundation. Period. That provides MOST of the nutrition that the horse needs as well as roughage/fiber, gut heath, etc. I don’t test my hay either. There is no point given how I have to purchase it (monthly) and where it comes from (various suppliers). And there can be bales in one load that look nothing alike…I suspect they weren’t even from the same cut or field.

So, I just do the best I can, and the best I’ve found is to feed a ration balancer (Triple Crown Balancer Gold works wonderfully for my horse). That plus the hay gives my horse all he needs. Now. I do add more Vitamin E in the winter while the pasture is dormant, and I give a hoof supplement with lots of Cu and Zn because the well water at the barn is very high in iron. I also feed a good joint supplement that I’m convinced helps. The only supplement that I feed that might be considered overkill is Omega Horseshine, but I have regretted it every time I’ve tried to quit that stuff for one reason or the other. I only feed 1/2 cup per day, so it lasts a long time and is fairly economical and it just seems to keep Mr. Horse extra healthy and happy.

If my budget got slashed, the horse could survive on 20 lbs. of good hay/pasture and 2 pounds of TC Balancer Gold per day. I would never pull that ration balancer unless it becomes impossible to get. It’s that good.

[LovieBird]

I do think people go crazy with supplements.

Get the best quality appropriate forage.
Add a ration balancer to provide necessary vitamins/minerals. If that’s not enough, best quality appropriate feed.

It’s important to feed at the minimum amounts on the feedbag too, otherwise your horse is getting shorted nutritionally.

[LovieBird]

Also: I think people also buy cheaper feed then add a bunch of supplements. If you start with quality you don’t have to try and piecemeal it together. My 2 cents.

[Xanthoria]

@JB

A whole lot of grasses in the US don’t have enough copper and zinc to meet bare minimum requirements when the horse is eating his normal 2% body weight.

Added to that, in some areas the iron content in soils is very high, further reducing the ratio of iron:copper:zinc, and all the resulting problems.

https://tin.er.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/fe/usa.html

[Maude]

OK,
So, what is the best and most cost effective vitamin/mineral supplement without protein? I don’t need energy, just maintainance.

[Obsidian_Fire]

Then you likely want something like California Trace or Vermont Blend. If you go to their sites you can read up on their products.
I think you’d be happiest feeding something that is fed in “ounces” rather than pounds.

[JB]

@Xanthoria

Added to that, in some areas the iron content in soils is very high, further reducing the ratio of iron:copper:zinc, and all the resulting problems.

Yep, the high iron is the reason for low/poor cu/zn uptake in forage

@Maude

So, what is the best and most cost effective vitamin/mineral supplement without protein? I don’t need energy, just maintainance.

There are a lot of choices that are 'best" since you don’t have a forage analysis. HorseTech’s High Point Grass, California Trace, Vermont Blend Pro (smaller serving size, likely easier to get consumed, over regular VB), Arizona Copper Complete are all “best” guesses.

But honestly, the proper amount of a ration balancer is simpler, and cheaper than most of the forage balancer options. Replacing your 1-3lb of TC Sr with 1-2lb of TC Balancer is simple, effective, and the small increase in protein is truly insignficant