Are We Overfeeding/Supplementing?

2lb of TC Sr at 14% protein is 127gm protein
1lb of TC Balancer at 30% is 136gm

The difference is inconsequential

1-2lb of TC Sr at an estimated 66-133gm NSC
1lb of TC Balancer at an estimated 50gm NSC

The difference is inconsequential at best, and MORE at worst, compared to what you’re feeding now

1-2lb of TC Sr is 1543-3086 calories
1lb TC Balancer is 1266 calories

Either way you look at this, you’re feeding more, or the “same” of what you’re afraid of, by using the TC Sr, than switching to TC Balancer

Yes, there are some balancers that are lower NSC, AND some that are higher. Nearly all of them are 30% protein. A couple are higher, a few are lower, but even then, then, the difference in protein is insignificant

22lb of hay at 10% protein is 998gm protein
22lb of hay at 10% NSC is 998gm NSC

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I swear by the TC Balancer Gold. In terms of lysine, I know it’s kind of going against the point of this thread, but something else I really love is Uckele’s CocoHoof supplement. It’s affordable and effective IME, and contains 2.5g of lysine along with other goodies (Cu, Zn, biotin, etc.) I have a barefoot horse with thin soles and the place I keep him has well water with a lot of iron, so I feel like this is a good supplement for him. His feet are noticeably tougher now that he’s been on CocoHoof for several months.

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Since the lysine and methionine are pretty low in the CocoHoof, but Cu and Zn are 100 and 300mg respectively, it’s likely the latter which made the improvement, rather than the AAs. Oh, it also has 20mg biotin which is a good bit.

If those 3 things are what you’re after, you can do them much more cheaply, though to be fair, $0.71-ish/day isn’t awful, if you only have 1-2 horses. If you’ve got more, then the individual ingredients are appreciably cheaper. But there’s a LOT to be said about an all-in-one option!

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I used CocoHoof for Lola, who had a not very good barefoot trim, thin soles, and sore heels when I bought her. Ultimately I did put her into front shoes with pads, but I think the CocoHoof was helpful. It is relatively economical, and has more of the good stuff than many hoof supplements.

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I love this thread for a couple reasons. One, I do believe many horses are over supplemented and how couldn’t it cause issues? Two, I’ve been testing hay for 25 years and if you believe in the NRC recommendations AND understand they are just a baseline, you come to have strong opinions about really totaling and understanding what a horse needs to thrive and have the immunity and strong system to combat all the sh*t that comes its way. System attacks.

There is consensus from vets after all these years that making sure our horses are getting enough zinc and copper helps their system and tissue ward off laminitis better than if they are not getting good levels. Given laminitis and colic are our number 1 and 2 killers and problem causers, for me it’s a no brainer and common sense to KNOW what you are feeding and make sure you are supplementing what is missing.

Hay testing in my area has shown the need to supplement zinc, copper, salt and sometimes I’ve needed calcium etc. I even had a hay test a few years ago show phosphorus HIGHER than calcium. Isn’t that important to know. Yes it is.

I have an Excel spreadsheet and total every darn mg and gm of whatever my horses are getting and make sure the levels are ok. It’s so important to really understand what all we are feeding.

I’ve even tested my pasture too.

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I often wonder if the increase in energy after being started on a ration balancer or V/M mineral supplement is actually the true personality of a horse coming out now that they are receiving better nutrition?

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And in regards to increased energy, I think that can be misinterpreted by owners/riders too. It isn’t a bad thing for a horse to have energy. In fact, I seek out ways to boost my gelding’s energy. He’s just not an energetic guy by nature, but when he DOES have energy, it’s so nice and I feel like it’s because he’s feeling quite good in his body that day. He doesn’t misbehave, he’s just much more forward-going. It’s lovely.

On the other hand, when he’s a panicky, wide-eyed, hot, snorty mess that acts like his tail is on fire, that’s not an increase in energy. That’s usually, in fact, a sign that he’s got significant pain somewhere (most likely in his gut in the form of ulcers). And certain types of feeds can exacerbate that type of pain for him, namely anything high NSC. His stool gets loose, and he gets so nervous and jittery that he’s not even recognizable as the same good ol’ laid back horse that he normally is.

People have to learn the difference between the kind of good energy of a healthy horse and the bad “energy” of a horse in pain.

I mean, sure…if you get a horse in that is half-starved and is just glazed over and lethargic, that horse is going to perk up once it is getting back into condition due to adequate calories, etc, and you can have a lot more energy to deal with. And if the horse is a natural a**hole, that’s going to return when he’s feeling better. Case in point: the OTTB gelding pastured beside my gelding. He came off a feed lot looking like the saddest bag of bones ever. Now he’s drop-dead gorgeous, moves like a million bucks, and is MEAN AS HELL. The mystery as to how such a high quality horse could wind up in such a sad situation is solved. He’s dangerous mean. The fella that owns him doesn’t ride, he just takes care of him and the other one he rescued from the feed lot. Both were pitiful upon arrival. Both are healthy as can be now, but they’re both bonkers.

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Interesting read by Dr. Ramey. Kind of my line of thinking.

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He is mostly right but I do think hay these days tends to be low in copper and zinc, and well water is high in iron which messes with absorption. Also no E in hay.

I eat a balanced diet myself but I also take a daily VMS, and if I go off it for a few days I get leg cramps. This is new to my old age :slight_smile:

My mare has been on a VMS, little to no actual grains, her whole life with me and is aging well. I suppose I could just supplement copper zinc and E but I don’t resent her daily dose of Omneity. I might re-think this if I had to feed a herd and costs multiplied.

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Ramey needs to be taken with a large grain of salt on a lot of his articles. Sometimes he really misses an important component of his subject of discussion, sometimes it seems he writes a contentious article just to write it

"It’s hard to find a definition of a “balanced diet” in horses, but they abound for people. "

No, it’s not. It may be hard to find a definition of an OPTIMAL balance for horses, but the same can be said of people. The NRC has been around for decades, akin to human RDA. Neither of those are about optimal health, but more or less about preventing disease.

" It seems to me that for humans anyway, “balance” is mostly about getting enough calories to maintain a healthy weight from a variety of foods, along with the requisite vitamins and minerals."

Same for horses. Enough calories from horse-appropriate forage and fiber, along with requisite vitamins and minerals.

“Another thing to consider about wild horses is that they are almost undoubtedly NOT always meeting all of their nutritional needs, especially in winter. Curiously, they are also not dropping like flies from the lack of daily attention to their aluminum requirements. What they are doing is eating a lot – they have the food they forage pretty much constantly going through their digestive tract. Nobody talks about the “quality” or “balance” of the diet of a wild horse: quantity is the thing for them.”

This is the kind of thing where he really misses an important component. Wild horses survive. They survive to procreate, and those who can’t deal with the limitations of the wild, don’t survive long.

Wild horses also aren’t selectively bred for anything other than the ability to survive. They aren’t bred for size or speed or color, above things like good feet, easy to get pregnant and easy to foal, “stomach of iron”.

AND, wild horses aren’t asked to work. The couch potato human has a lower nutritional need than someone who takes their exercise seriously with 4-7 hours of strenuous exercise a week. The latter will not be healthy on the diet of the former.

"From an evolutionary perspective, it doesn’t make any sense at all that if would have to be difficult for a horse to fill its nutritional needs on those relatively poor-quality feeds that made up a “balanced” diet. I mean, if it was hard, wild horses would have just died out. Instead, they thrived. "
Their SPECIES may be thriving in terms of populations, but individuals aren’t thriving their whole lives. He seems to be confusing the 2 things

"As with humans, the most important consideration when it comes to nutritional “balance” is that the horse be kept at a good weight (generally said to be where you can’t see the horse’s ribs, but you can feel them easily). "

No, no, and no. Weight has nothing to do with nutritional health. Have you never seen the “healthy weight” girl who has terrible skin, bad cholesterol, and pushing Type 2 diabetes? Genetics and lower calories keep her weight in check (or she only eats 1000 calories a day), but poor food choices are taking a toll on her body.

Caloric needs are separate from nutritional needs

“o be frank, this goal seems to be considerably more challenging for some folks that others, as evidenced by the fact that obesity seems to be a bit of a problem in domestic horses”
Well yes - over-fed and under-nourished is a real thing - it’s a common issue in humans. And it doesn’t matter how fat a horse is on just hay, he’s not getting the vitamin E he needs for long-term health.

“It’s impossible to make a horse deficient in any of the B-vitamins”
No it’s not. Gut dysbiosis can easily make them B-deficient

"He likely gets enough Vitamin E, unless he’s constantly getting brown, low-quality forage. Even so, he can store enough Vitamin E to last six months or so "
See above - unless that forage is GRASS, he’s not getting the E he needs, no matter the color of the hay. And there are PLENTY of horses who never get more than a 30 minute session of hand-grazing, if even that

" * Most decent quality forages have enough vitamins and minerals"
Agree, but there are a LOT of forages that don’t. Lots of the US has high iron soil which means low copper and zinc to the point the horse has to eat 3% of his weight, sometimes more, just to meet his bare min requirement, and for many horses, that would make them fat

““Ration balancers” are given along the same rationale as are vitamin and mineral supplements in people, a sort of “nutritional insurance” (also known as, “Just in case”).”

Except the provide enough of the more critical nutrients to make up for some of the more common deficits in average forages. They’re more than “just in case”. And since most people can’t test their forage, that “just in case” is a very good thing

"In humans, vitamin and mineral supplements tends to lead to excessive intakes of vitamins and minerals "
Because people like to take multiple things without understanding them, let alone understanding their diet, it’s not that the average v/m supplement’s going to push them into toxic or truly wasteful territory. Same with horses - a ration balancer, forage balancer, or good v/m supplement (there are FAR too many that are useless) - doesn’t provide truly excessive intake

The problem is when someone doesn’t understand these, and uses a ration balancer AND a “senior supplement” that’s got v/ms in it along with joint-supportive ingredients, AND a “gut supplement” that’s got v/ms in it along with the gut stuff, etc. That’s also not over-supplementing, necessarily, that’s not paying attention to or understanding what’s in what you’re feeding

" according to the US government’s 2020–2025 Dietary Guidelines for Americans , “Because foods provide an array of nutrients and other components that have benefits for health, nutritional needs should be met primarily through foods."
Well of course, horses too. But have you seen the craptastic diets the majority of people eat? Obesity isn’t rampant for no reason. Have you seen how “mono food” many people’s diets are? They eat the same small handful of foods, often very few vegetables and too little protein.

“How about reducing or eliminating grain concentrates, which can cause all sorts of problems in horses, especially when fed to excess.”
It’s statements like this which has IME led to the recent surge in “forage-based” and “forage-only” diets that has too many horses look like crap, despite their forage actually being pretty decent. Why? See above.

YES, feed horses like they should be fed - a healthy amount of hay/grass to meet their calorie needs. Amen. Forage-based is how horses SHOULD be fed. In addition to that, they need some nutritional improvement for the reasons I’ve listed above. Maybe that needs to come with some, or significant calories, maybe it doesn’t. Figure that out for your individual horse at any given point in time (Summer vs Winter, work vs no work, etc)

I really dislike his articles in general.

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Agree. He is not a reliable source on his own - not everything he says is incorrect, but I would not stop at him as a main source. I would keep researching and come to my own conclusions using the entire body of knowledge available.

I agree with everything you said, JB, and appreciate the time you took to spell it all out!

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Double thank you @JB! I was reading that before you posted and had all sorts of brain soup trying formulate a response lol. Yours is much more coherent than mine would have been :joy:

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You’re both welcome!

YES

That’s another reason I dislike most of his articles. Often (as he did in places here) he lays out the “ridiculous” scenario he’s trying to advocate against (over-supplementing in this case) but in such a way that if you’re not paying really close attention to the WHOLE article, and reading it a couple of times, it can sound like he’s saying “do that” or “this is correct” or whatever. In fact, I’d quoted a few of his comments to refute them because they sound like he was advocating for more “stuff”, when I read a bit further, again, and realized that was likely (I hope) his “this is what you might think has to be done but it’s not” description, so had to delete what I was typing.

His articles usually make my head hurt lol

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Third-ing a thanks for that detailed response, @JB! I’m another person who finds Ramey’s articles frustrating and disingenuous.

He appeals a lot to the “back in the good old days” type of mentality without acknowledging that we know a lot more now than in the past, and that surviving =/= thriving.

There’s a middle ground between “put them on every Platinum Pak / SmartPak / tub of supplements I can find for each perceived issue without regard to what’s in each supplement” and “just feed good hay and nothing else.”

ETA: Another thing that always bewilders me a bit about the whole wild horse diet thing–setting aside that they’re really just surviving, not thriving–is that they’re browsing on diverse forage and foliage. They’re not just eating one variety of grass hay that’s largely grown in a monoculture field, or a few species grown together, or maybe a couple flakes of grass and a flake of alfalfa. They’re traveling over pretty broad areas and eating a variety of things. Which means they’re by default getting a more varied diet than your average horse fed whatever grass hay, whether trucked in or local. At least in my region, folks aren’t–and can’t, really, just due to lack of supply–feed multiple varieties of forage to ensure significant species diversity in their hay. It’s just not feasible. I can’t speak to areas where grazing is more common since I’m in CA, the land of permanent dry lots, but I think it’s probably a similar situation.

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Just another vote for “know your horse.” I tried a popular balancer (Vermont Blend) for over a year; it didn’t do anything I could see, especially for his feet (it’s not that high in biotin, as I recall). One month on TC Senior (I could see some changes as early as two weeks) and horse blossomed in every possible way. I’m just saying no one feed program is gospel for every horse.

Others could probably comment more intelligently/with more experience on how long to try any given feed/supplement program before deciding it did or didn’t work well for a given horse.

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25mg of biotin is plenty for most horses. But, most horses also don’t need additional biotin

details would be interesting, including the time of year the change was made and what/how much you mixed the VB with. Forage balancers are dialed-down nutrients, providing more of the few nutrients that are most commonly low in forages. Regular feeds are much more comprehensive, provide protein and fat and significant calories, so they’re definitely apples to oranges

What you CAN affect in that short a time is coat shine, from the additional fat in a regular feed, especially a higher fat one. You can improve energy via appropriate calories, or the energy from the fat. You can improve digestion and overall “feels better” with TCs nice gut package

that all depends on what you hope to impact. Improved hoof rate of growth won’t take but a few cycles to see. Improved hoof quality can take most or all of a full growth cycle which is usually 9-12 months for front feet, a bit shorter for hinds. If you want to improve coat bleaching, that takes until the next coat is fully in and been through the season, so especially for Summer fading, you need to compare July-Sept to the next July-Sept, and you need to start that feeding by mid-Jan or so (6 months difference in the Southern hemisphere)

And in the end, that’s not over-supplementing at all or even really supplementing (IMHO) unless you truly consider anything but hay/grass as supplementation.

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Agree with all of the above – @JB – great post, thank you!

Ramey is a contrarian, pure and simple.

He is indeed old school and though yes – in recent decades, people have accepted more “woo” – and not all of it is helpful!, the head in the sand “old school mentality” ignores and casts aspersions on a lot of legitimate advances in science and knowledge re: nutrition, lameness and general equine health.

He’s a grumpy old know-it-all who too often dispenses curmudgeonly “advice” while talking in circles.

:roll_eyes:

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Ramey and Pat Parelli should get married.

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:joy::joy:

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