Baby Green Hunter Moment VIDEO UPDATE on p 10

[Haalter]

[QUOTE=DMK;4662012]
Huh, funny… I read TOO’s post as a bit of a life lesson in what can happen when you don’t nip that particular behavior in the bud.[/QUOTE]Same here.

I have always considered rearing the ultimate resistance to the forward aids…And have seen numerous situations where things have escalated over time to the point of rearing when installing a dependable “forward button” was neglected throughout the horse’s training.

If you look at it as a progression: 1) sucking back while in forward motion 2) stopping 3) backing up 4) rearing. I try to nip it in the bud - or at least address it agressively - when this behavior is still in stage #1.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=DMK;4662012]
Huh, funny… I read TOO’s post as a bit of a life lesson in what can happen when you don’t nip that particular behavior in the bud.[/QUOTE]

I know this is a CRAZY statement to make when we like to make everything so black and white, and like, DUH, but perhaps the lifelong horsepeeps on this thread have noticed that textbook application of the aids, regardless of at what point in time in the horse’s training, does not always result in textbook responses.
Who knew?!

Thus, though we like to speak with such 100% certainty, when typing away at our deskchairs, that “a properly trained horse will x and such and blah di blah,” there does remain a little bit of grey area regarding whether or not pushing an issue will result in “nipping the behavior in the bud,” or “a trip to the ER,” or “something in between.”

Horses being horses, and all.

Note that I am NOT claiming I think my horse would have flipped over on me, just that the self-assured black-and-whiteness with which some posters are expressing their opinions from their keyboards is a little simplistic when it comes to real live horses.

[TheOrangeOne]

[QUOTE=Haalter;4662086]
Same here.

I have always considered rearing the ultimate resistance to the forward aids…And have seen numerous situations where things have escalated over time to the point of rearing when installing a dependable “forward button” was neglected throughout the horse’s training.

If you look at it as a progression: 1) sucking back while in forward motion 2) stopping 3) backing up 4) rearing. I try to nip it in the bud - or at least address it agressively - when this behavior is still in stage #1.[/QUOTE]
:yes:

I don’t really care HOW anyone goes about it, they can use a crop, spurs, flip the reins over and under like a barrel racer (one of my dirty tricks), call your parelli master, to each their own. However, it’s important to do. I have enlisted the BO to walk alongside me with a lunge whip on several occasions. However, that is just my personal experience with what happens when you allow them to stop or back up when they’re afraid of something. It leads to rearing.

Edit: Just wanted to reiterate that I’m not trying to say that you should absolutely do this or that, I’m just trying to put out there a little food for thought. Plenty of people have given banamine IM with no adverse effects, but the slight chance of having your horse’s neck explode isn’t worth it to me, so I take the precaution based on someone else’s worst case scenario. I find a rear to be far more likely than the banamine neck abscess of doom, though they don’t all flip over. Still, I don’t think it’s worth taking that chance.

[FineAlready]

Yowza. I’m surprised at how bent out of shape everyone is getting over this. We’re talking about two short aerial-view video clips taken from a distance. None of us were on the horse, and it sounds like not many of us have ever seen the horse in person.

Yeah, looking at the video, I probably would have tried to do a few things differently. Maybe. Hard to say, since I’ve never so much as laid eyes on the horse in person. But when I look at videos of myself on my own young horse, I see things I would like to do differently too.

I dunno. Can’t we just look at the videos, see a cute, young, well-cared for horse having a baby moment that we may or may not have handled differently, and move on? We can pontificate all day long on what should have been done differently, what could go wrong in the future, etc., but at the end of the day, I suspect that this horse will turn out okay.

[monty]

The Wrong Message Being Sent

The question that needs to be asked is??? Why did OP post this thread? I am just curious what the point of it was. Okay so she has her reasons why it was not appropriate to get after her horse. The rest of us armchair trainers are not sitting on him. Maybe he rears up when pressured. She did what she felt was appropriate and I will not criticize that.
What I will criticize is, what message are you sending to everyone. That it is cute to blatantly disregard the rider? That is a dangerous message to send. That is how nice quality horses end up in auctions. Because the owners thought subtle bad behavior was cute. But then horse realizes it got away with it, so it pushes the boundaries even farther, until horse now dirty rears and baulks etc. I am not saying it will happen with this horse. The rider says she is very experienced. So I will give that to her. But if less experienced horse owners get the message that its okay to let a horse back out of a ring when it doesn’t want to go, we are doing these owners and their horses a disservice.
Lets face it, no one wants to have a battle with their horses. And if a message is sent that it is better not to cause a blow up and let the horse do what it wants, then people will think that is the right/easier way to go. For most other horses, except this one, it really starts the process of reverting to dangerous behavior.
I am in the camp of don’t let it happen twice. And if it does, and the current rider cannot handle it, then get someone who can.

[KC_and_the_Sunshine]

[QUOTE=FineAlready;4662193]

I dunno. Can’t we just look at the videos, see a cute, young, well-cared for horse having a baby moment that we may or may not have handled differently, and move on? We can pontificate all day long on what should have been done differently, what could go wrong in the future, etc., but at the end of the day, I suspect that this horse will turn out okay.[/QUOTE]

No. I disagree with your entire post but I’ll stick to this last paragraph. If this OP wasn’t such a self rightious pain in the neck this probably wouldn’t have gone so far, but since she is, why not keep going?

I suspect the horse will get worse. I also think the horse is under wieght, and a u neck with a pointy croup, but that’s from a high aerial view from far away. Since the OP is such know it all on all things horse related to training, it’s really amazing to see that her horse is in the condition it’s in. I really expected too see a well muscled, round, forward horse, not the inverted thin horse in the video with no top line who backs out the in gate. I think every one who is as opinionated as the OP should be required to submit videos so we are able to determine how much weight to put on their opinions.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;4661920]

After your previous “advice” on this thread I am really wondering how much weight I should give your analysis, because you are pretty obviously GUESSING randomly about a lot of it, such as your astute lectures about whether or not I am wearing spurs or using earplugs, which you pretty clearly have NO BASIS for making your assumptions about in the first place.
Silvia Browne school of riding.[/QUOTE]

Where have I ONCE even so much as mentioned spurs on this thread? I never, ever suggested you wear spurs. I advocated for the use of a crop. I ASKED why you didn’t consider using earplugs. You never responded to that question.

I won’t comment on the ride any more. Clearly, we’ve all given you advice you’re not going to take or that we’re somehow not qualified to give. I’ll end my involvement on this thread by saying that those videos aren’t examples of “cute” or “silly” or “loveable” baby horse moments. They’re a stubborn horse (backing out of the ring?) that’s going to learn to stay that way if courses like that continue to happen. Period.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=KC and the Sunshine Band;4662246]
No. I disagree with your entire post but I’ll stick to this last paragraph. If this OP wasn’t such a self rightious pain in the neck this probably wouldn’t have gone so far, but since she is, why not keep going?

I suspect the horse will get worse. I also think the horse is under wieght, and a u neck with a pointy croup, but that’s from a high aerial view from far away. Since the OP is such know it all on all things horse related to training, it’s really amazing to see that her horse is in the condition it’s in. I really expected too see a well muscled, round, forward horse, not the inverted thin horse in the video with no top line who backs out the in gate. I think every one who is as opinionated as the OP should be required to submit videos so we are able to determine how much weight to put on their opinions.[/QUOTE]

The horse nearly died from colic before he turned two.
He was put on the table twice, once to save his life, and once to hopefully prevent the problem from happening again.

The vets told us he should NEVER eat ANY grain again for the rest of his life; however he does get 3 pounds of 14% protein pellets per day in addition to his hay and dengie in disregard of those orders because of his thin appearance. That is as far as I am willing to go in direct contradiction of doctor’s orders, but maybe I should just disregard them entirely, feed 12 pounds of grain a day and hope he don’t die?

I look forward to the day you walk your talk and put some videos in your sig line, too. Then we can all know how much weight to put to your opinions.

[Jumpin_Horses]

honestly, I really dont think she was in danger of creating a “rearer”…

well, perhaps if she used a spur or crop on him she might have created one… but, honestly, in this case, I think she did nip in the bud, by showing the baby he was okay, and that there was nothing to worry about. he will remember this for next time that he has nothing to worry about. and he will build on every experience.

but, this post got me thinking, and at the risk of turning it into a “rearer” post, I have to say, Ive been on A LOT of rearers and NEVER had one flip over on me. (knock on wood)

I wonder sometimes what is going on with all these horses flipping over are they tripping over something? IDK.

now, having said that I wonder if its how people “RIDE THE REARER” that is creating the problem.

here is a video of (IMO) the correct way to “RIDE” a rear. keep in mind this is IMO ONLY. oh, I know Im risking huge controversy here, just try to keep it civil?

AND I dont want this to turn into a “Endo” post either. I understand that not everyone likes him, we dont have to ALL “like” him… thats fine…

BUT NOTE:-------- IN THIS particular case/situation I REALLY like how he handled/rode this rearing colt.

CHECK OUT HIS SEAT this is how you sit a rearer. this is how ive always personally sat a “rearer” and never had one “flip”… YET :winkgrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBcQsVdxEA8

heck, when I was a kid, we taught our horses to rear on command, and yelled “YEE-HAA!” waving our swords (sticks) in the air behind us. everytime they did it.

my TB mare used to rear all the time when she was unconfident, and young. quite like this colt. this is something she just chose to do even with no pressure on her. she would spook and up she’d go (even threw in a little twist, leap, hump for good measure sometimes :))…

I just didnt make a big deal out of it, and I stayed out of her way. out of her mouth, and out of her way. nothing tied her head down. and basically she reared herself out (just like this colt) her tactics had no affect. over the years she has been in some tough situations and there isnt a “rear” left in her. too much bother I guess. she is 7 now and hasnt reared in 3 years under any stress. I trust her to NOT rear anymore.

in fact, lately she has been trying a NEW tactic to get out of work. I taught her to give kissys on command, now she asks for a kissy instead of working… THAT ONE WORKS FOR HER :lol:

you hear all the time how people have tried this and that, and they just seem to create a MORE chronic rearer. what about trying something else? It could work???

now, in dressage we actually “teach” rearing in “aires above ground” but, thats a different story.

rearing with this young horse… naw… I guess I just dont see it. but, he seems rather athletic, and built very well though that if he did rear, he’d probably pull it off quite well as long as the rider stayed out of his way :lol:

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=FrenchFrytheEqHorse;4662262]
Where have I ONCE even so much as mentioned spurs on this thread? I never, ever suggested you wear spurs. I advocated for the use of a crop. [/QUOTE]

@FrenchFrytheEqHorse;4657370

The quick application of an artificial aid like a crop or spur would likely have helped to avoid that problem altogether.

That part.

Silvia Browne strikes again.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;4662301]
That part.

Silvia Browne strikes again.[/QUOTE]

Hahahaha. Alright. I’ll give you that. Bless your heart, dear, for equating that with a lecture on the use of spurs. I hope your horse turns out to be all that you plan. He has a nice canter and a cute face.

[Equino]

I think we all should expect if we post a video or picture on this forum, we put ourselves out there to be critiqued. I know at times things go too far and people get defensive or offended, but it is a great way to learn. If you (meaning any poster, not just the OP) don’t want feedback, just post the video on youtube, disable leaving comments, and don’t post on an open forum.

That said, I was thinking of a similar young horse belonging to a friend. Owner bought her over the summer of her 3 year old year, and she promptly colicked, had surgery and was laid up until the following spring. She had some temperamental issues that our trainer said to ignore, she’d “outgrow” it-like slowing down and trying to veer towards the gate, kicking out when leg was applied, trying to drift out of lines and not moving up for the out of the lines-and that made us second guess what we should do. It progressed to the point where she flat out refused to go forward, backing up and tried heading to the gate, all because we changed the jumps in the ring one day. When pressed to go forward, she started rearing. Not a meltdown with her panicked and out of control. Just a “No.” response and then up she went. In hindsight, we can list the events that led to that point, but we trusted the trainer and followed his lead-no spurs, always in a flash noseband and drawreins, and always a crop, but no smacking, just a little wave or tap behind leg. He would say,“She’s just a baby.” and “She had a tough beginning.” But we now know that is crap. She was NOT a baby and yes, colic surgery sucks, but being turned out for 6 months to heal and grow up was not a tough beginning. If it weren’t for the rearing, she probably would’ve been fine if we switched to a new trainer, but that rearing scared us and the trainer would not ride her, so off she went to bootcamp for 4 months and now, even on her worst days, she is 1000X better, much more rideable, KNOWS leg means go, no matter what scary obstacles are in or out of the ring. I agree rearing is the ultimate F-U a horse can give you, and that stems from lack of respect for leg/going forward. It was a good 3 months into her training she actually reared for the 1st time, but it was also a couple months of refusing to accept leg as well that got her to that rearing point. And yes, we did get a new trainer!

I know your guy is not rearing or any thing like this mare was, but she began with similar reactions, and I wonder if we had gotten after her more from the get go if her antics would’ve escalated to the point that it did. We “babied” her and thought going slow, being nice was the right thing. Clearly back fired in her case, largely thanks to a too passive and fearful trainer, that steered the owner wrong.

Meupatdoes…just curious about the no grain situation, would you be able to try something like Empower rice bran pellets which is very high fat? Or Omegatin? Only because you can feed so little and I swear it makes a HUGE difference, the extra protein helps build muscle and the high fat gets them fat and sleek looking. Not trying to convince you you are doing something wrong since you didn’t ask, just wondering!

[TheOrangeOne]

On the rearing, you will note that I did qualify that not all horses who rear will flip, but that even a slight chance of being flipped on is enough to take counter measures. When I was a kid I took great enjoyment of walking my mare through foot deep mud, skidding down the slopes of the irrigation ditch, leaping across the water, and then shimmying back up. Now I know better and realize I was damn lucky neither of us got hurt.

As far as riding a rear, it’s very dependent on the horse. If they are just testing you and trying to scare you, I’ll tap them in between the ears with the bat or my fist. Not so hard as to cause a great degree of pain, because the poll is very sensitive, but just timed correctly that they know that I can still get after them when they’re in the air, and perhaps make them think that there is some manner of barrier above them that they can’t hit. If the horse is spooking, I grab mane with my left hand, lean forward, and take my right rein and pull it down and out toward my right boot to spin them down, and then make them really go to work and reinforce forward past the object. I do agree that for one who has already learned to rear, that artificial aids can just instigate them more if they are used too late, however that is not the case with this one yet. The really chronic ones, if you REALLY want to fix them, you put on an old saddle that you save just for the purpose that has no stirrups, pick a fight pull them over backwards and jump off sideways out of their way. Rinse and repeat until they hurt themselves bad enough that they decide it’s not worth it. Finding someone who is coordinated enough to leap out of the way just in the nick of time is difficult, and I don’t hesitate to admit that I am not that person. I would also not personally feel OK with asking someone else to do it in my stead, but I have seen the method used with success.

In the case of the man in the video, I think he is quite clever, and what he did there obviously worked for that horse. I will usually indulge them with some mental games to avoid a confrontation, because at the end of the day they are bigger and stronger than us. Rearing is just not one of those things that I’ll mess around with. It is for him, and he did get that 5 year old stallion to walk out of the barn, though I can not imagine what kind of horse is still on the track and not in the breeding shed at five years old, and assume based on my limited knowledge of horse racing that the colt is probably not worth the fight. That trainer seems to be experienced with problem horses, and perhaps the flip to him is just another thing that horses do, and he trusts himself to get out of the way. I don’t understand his motivation to take the risk of riding a horse who goes up that high, personally, but whatever tickles your pickle.

[Jumpin_Horses]

yea, I removed the link to the “rearer” after I read it I thought it would be too much controversy and Im too busy today to carry on with it, and it would take the OP “off topic” sorry…

I just posted it as (IMO) the correct way to “sit” a rearer… but, I realized it was TMI…

[meupatdoes]

@Equino;4662374

I think we all should expect if we post a video or picture on this forum, we put ourselves out there to be critiqued.

I really disagree with the logic that just because somebody posted a video they have given everyone else free rein to let it rip. The responders’ behavior is still the responsibility of the responders, not the OP, regardless of what the OP did or did not post.

[QUOTE=Equino;4662374]
Meupatdoes…just curious about the no grain situation, would you be able to try something like Empower rice bran pellets which is very high fat? Or Omegatin? Only because you can feed so little and I swear it makes a HUGE difference, the extra protein helps build muscle and the high fat gets them fat and sleek looking. Not trying to convince you you are doing something wrong since you didn’t ask, just wondering![/QUOTE]

Now this I appreciate, not only for the helpful suggestion but also for the way you phrased it.
I will definitely ask my vet about it.
Are the Empower pellets a supplement or a whole feed?
How have you worked them into your feeding program?

[Allagash_s_mom]

@meupatdoes;4661736

I am a little confused by this post.

It seems like you would have liked the ride in the video better if he had been spinning and bolting away from the jumps.

geh, hardly! plus, I know he’s a better boy than to do that I was arguing against those posters who were advocating that the horse is just scared shitless. Well, I just don’t see it.

I see a bugged eye horse in a new environment who has thoughfuly decided to be polite about most of his cautiousness and take it nice and slow. Waaay better than bolting

And then I tossed in a comment that I can’t always tell when people here are using ‘green’ if they mean a young horse or one who is showing green hunters, which aren’t always the same thing? I think? remember, eventer here

[Equino]

@meupatdoes;4662483

I really disagree with the logic that just because somebody posted a video they have given everyone else free rein to let it rip. The responders’ behavior is still the responsibility of the responders, not the OP, regardless of what the OP did or did not post.

Oh, I do agree-anyone who posts are responsible for what they do say. My point is I think when you post a video/picture on a forum like this, it should be expected to draw various opinions. I think people who do post links that put themselves and their horses out there in the open are very brave and need to have thick skin at times!

Now this I appreciate, not only for the helpful suggestion but also for the way you phrased it.
I will definitely ask my vet about it.
Are the Empower pellets a supplement or a whole feed?
How have you worked them into your feeding program?

The Empower pellets is rice bran in pelleted form. I have only used them to supplement the usual grain that a horse gets for the added fat value. When I have a layup that I think looks too thin or lacking something, I prefer to cut back on their grain and add a cup or two of rice bran. I’ve never had a horse pick over it I’m sure you could just feed this without grain. Here’s a link for more information:
http://www.nutrenaworld.com/nutrena/products/horses/empower/index.jsp

Omegatin is similar-high fat and fiber, low starch and can be fed as a feed or supplement. Just seems to me a wise feeding plan because not only do you get more fat into your horse, it is very digestable, and there’s a lower risk of colic because it is high fiber and low starch.
http://www.omegatin.com/Home.aspx

[yadayada]

I’ve watched the video and honestly MPD, if you are going to post a video of any kind, you need to be prepared for some criticism. The fact that you are so defensive (that you would answer every. single. post. so. aggressively) is telling. I’m also a little perplexed that you claim to know so much about training greenies, yet you are unable to use a crop without compromising your position on the horse? Really? Your horse is cute but looks like he needs a few extra pounds and a few pro rides.

[TheOrangeOne]

If I had a horse who couldn’t eat any grain, I’d mix up a slop with soaked alfalfa cubes, platinum performance, a cup of oil, and some probiotics. It’s a nutritious slop with no grains in it at all. If you can do small quantities of grains, I would add in some oats, maybe one pound per feeding, for the amino acids they contain to help with muscle development. They seem to love it, and it’s gentle on the tummy. My guy had some major weight to gain and major GI issues, so I fed him boiled whole barley flaked barley turns into this gross gray spackle. Cooking the grains breaks down the starches so that they do not ferment as much in the hindgut and lead to acidosis and therefore hindgut ulcers. To do that, you would cover the quantity of grains that you would like to cook with water in a great big pot, bring to a boil, and then let them simmer for 3-4 hours for whole oats, 45 minutes for crimped. Generally you just want to see the husk cracking and the nutritious inner gooey bits oozing out like a cracked hardboiled egg I found this was a good way to make the food more digestable rather than feeding more of it to compensate for what goes to waste and stressing his system further.

Not that you asked, just that you mentioned he can’t have a ton of feed. Boiling grains is a lost process, but I found that it made a big difference with my guy when he was showing.

[DMK]

@meupatdoes;4662119

I know this is a CRAZY statement to make when we like to make everything so black and white, and like, DUH, but perhaps the lifelong horsepeeps on this thread have noticed that textbook application of the aids, regardless of at what point in time in the horse’s training, does not always result in textbook responses.
Who knew?!

Thus, though we like to speak with such 100% certainty, when typing away at our deskchairs, that “a properly trained horse will x and such and blah di blah,” there does remain a little bit of grey area regarding whether or not pushing an issue will result in “nipping the behavior in the bud,” or “a trip to the ER,” or “something in between.”

Horses being horses, and all.

Note that I am NOT claiming I think my horse would have flipped over on me, just that the self-assured black-and-whiteness with which some posters are expressing their opinions from their keyboards is a little simplistic when it comes to real live horses.

Let’s see, a summary of my posts on this thread:

1. The classical masters recommend the use of the crop, however not every rule works for every horse… but did you think your rides were as forward as they needed to be?

2. Oh yeah, I have a horse who isn’t a fan of crops, but given the appropriate training it is a useful tool.

3. Sometimes it’s about knowing when we can’t get the job done on a horse and get someone on them who can give them the right ride, even if it kind of sucks for us.

4. Just because you (in the generic sense) don’t agree with posters here, doesn’t mean their suggestions aren’t valid or they don’t know what they are talking about.

5. Gee, I read something entirely different than you did.

Yes, of course, all that and everything others has posted is clearly a dissertation in B&W. Nope, no shades of gray here…

I think there’s less B&W in these posts and a lot more inability to see the gray, primarily because you don’t prefer that particular shade of gray.

Now if I was to start speaking in black and white terms, I would say that this looked like a horse who isn’t particularly forward, and may well have not been effectively forward long before they arrived at that ingate and there was most definitely a teachable moment here, but it should have been realized by the rider, who was a lot more of an ineffective passenger than an effective trainer. If I was to continue speaking in B&W terms, I would say every last one of us has been in that position and more than once. It’s what you choose to do about it that is the measure of your character. And lastly, I would add what you do (or do not do) about it is absolutely none of my or anyone else’s business, unless you keep coming back and lecturing us on it. Then you are putting the ball in our court.