Not a breeder, but I knew a woman who bought a hanovarian and imported her. She paid an arm and a leg for the mare, thinking it would be her ticket to the big shows. the horse was 4-5, and was competing PSGs. Turns out the horse had major psychological issues with being inside arenas. In the arena, the mare would buck her into the sky, bite, kick, etc. outside the arena it was an absolute pleasure. The mare had been started very young too, and we figured the horse was so sour because she had been pushed so hard when she was young to be doing dressage movements she wasn’t mentally or physically capable of. That woman now has a very expensive trail horse!
I hope that’s not what happens with this poor stallion.
[QUOTE=StormyDay;8069749]
Not a breeder, but I knew a woman who bought a hanovarian and imported her. She paid an arm and a leg for the mare, thinking it would be her ticket to the big shows. the horse was 4-5, and was competing PSGs. Turns out the horse had major psychological issues with being inside arenas. In the arena, the mare would buck her into the sky, bite, kick, etc. outside the arena it was an absolute pleasure. The mare had been started very young too, and we figured the horse was so sour because she had been pushed so hard when she was young to be doing dressage movements she wasn’t mentally or physically capable of. That woman now has a very expensive trail horse!
I hope that’s not what happens with this poor stallion.[/QUOTE]
Competing PSG at 5?
The 6 year old FEI test is only equivalent to about Third level.
[QUOTE=StormyDay;8069749]
Not a breeder, but I knew a woman who bought a hanovarian and imported her. She paid an arm and a leg for the mare, thinking it would be her ticket to the big shows. the horse was 4-5, and was competing PSGs. Turns out the horse had major psychological issues with being inside arenas. In the arena, the mare would buck her into the sky, bite, kick, etc. outside the arena it was an absolute pleasure. The mare had been started very young too, and we figured the horse was so sour because she had been pushed so hard when she was young to be doing dressage movements she wasn’t mentally or physically capable of. That woman now has a very expensive trail horse![/QUOTE]
I’m guessing some of this information is not correct. 
FEI rules state a horse must be a minimum age of 7 to compete at Prix St. George.
I was really surprised to hear that anyone in Germany is promoting a stallion to this level at 2! Sickening. I can’t imagine any of my horses being prepared in any way shape or form to be able to live up to the rigors emotionally or physically of the brilliant ring. I can’t believe that pic is of a 2 year old. So wrong on so many levels. And gee there is a problem with his semen. DUH…I would say that is the least of your worries.
[QUOTE=europa;8070099]
I was really surprised to hear that anyone in Germany is promoting a stallion to this level at 2! Sickening. I can’t imagine any of my horses being prepared in any way shape or form to be able to live up to the rigors emotionally or physically of the brilliant ring. I can’t believe that pic is of a 2 year old. So wrong on so many levels. And gee there is a problem with his semen. DUH…I would say that is the least of your worries.[/QUOTE]
Am I missing something?
Not saying I agree with the whole time line to start with but why is everyone assuming he is being pushed any harder then any licencing champion?
He is under saddle because he needs to go for his approval which most do in their third year. And he was bought as a breeding stallion. This story is no different than tons of popular stallions that were used for breeding after licencing, except they paid a ton and he is not fertile.
Tolegro is an example. How many offspring will he have this year and he was campaigned and collected at 3. He will be 4 this year.
Once again, not saying I agree with any of this, for many reasons pointed out by Kyzteke, but this is not a special case.
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2014/01/21/stallion-stud-tolegro
Forgive my ignorance when it comes to the breeding world, but what need is there to breed a 2yo colt? I mean, if he’s basically sound and they plan to have him in training, why not wait until he’s accomplished something? His genetics aren’t going anywhere, but I would think it would be more of a selling point if he had a performance record to go along with it.
[QUOTE=europa;8070099]
I was really surprised to hear that anyone in Germany is promoting a stallion to this level at 2! Sickening. I can’t imagine any of my horses being prepared in any way shape or form to be able to live up to the rigors emotionally or physically of the brilliant ring. I can’t believe that pic is of a 2 year old. So wrong on so many levels. And gee there is a problem with his semen. DUH…I would say that is the least of your worries.[/QUOTE]
It’s not in Germany, it’s in Denmark. The pic appears to be from his Danish performance test, so he was about 3 months shy of his 3rd (biological) birthday. He was unfortunately a late foal as far as stallion licensings/testings go, but I doubt they ride him like that every day for a full 45-60 minutes (even in Andreas Helgstrand’s barn). He probably normally gets maybe 3-4 days a week of light work and short sessions, but the work would have had to be ramped up a bit for the SPT. Also - that pic is a moment in time. For all we know, he was going around the rest of the time in a longer frame, and the rider asked him for a bit more contact/self carriage so the test judges could see how he would respond.
What I am not clear on is whether they test the stallions for steroids at the Danish SPT. If not, then I would certainly wonder if AH put him on steroids to beef him up.
[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8070148]
Forgive my ignorance when it comes to the breeding world, but what need is there to breed a 2yo colt? I mean, if he’s basically sound and they plan to have him in training, why not wait until he’s accomplished something? His genetics aren’t going anywhere, but I would think it would be more of a selling point if he had a performance record to go along with it.[/QUOTE]
Even though he was born in June, he ‘officially’ became a 3 y/o on Jan. 1 2015. He dominated the 2014 Hanoverian stallion licensing and sold at the auction for 620,000E. Interest in him from the breeders is quite high, and the buyers want to make as much money back as soon as possible. He had to complete an SPT to be able to sire registered foals, so that is why they got him going under saddle and sent him to the Danish SPT.
If they had waited till later in the spring or the summer to start/test him, he would have missed out on most of this year’s breeding season. That is a lot of money to walk away from.
[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8070148]
Forgive my ignorance when it comes to the breeding world, but what need is there to breed a 2yo colt? I mean, if he’s basically sound and they plan to have him in training, why not wait until he’s accomplished something? His genetics aren’t going anywhere, but I would think it would be more of a selling point if he had a performance record to go along with it.[/QUOTE]
620,000 euro
These are business people, not hobby breeders. As stated above, look how many breeding’s Tolegro got in his first year. What if he got 2000 breeding’s world wide? Even 1000 or 500. That is a return on the investment even if the horse tanks as a performance horse. And with that many offspring on the ground, he may even prove himself as a stallion without even having a career in case he is injured. It is a business decision.
[QUOTE=Daventry;8070078]
I’m guessing some of this information is not correct. FEI rules state a horse must be a minimum age of 7 to compete at Prix St. George.[/QUOTE]
Oops! I’m just repeating that the owner bragged about when she bought the horse. Maybe she meant schooling, not showing. Either way, it doesn’t matter. They pushed the mare too young and now she has a very expensive, very fancy, trail horse. 
Colts have undergone stallion approval in this country at 2.5yrs for many many years but it is only lately that one after another high-priced colt turns up with fertility issues. The first cases I remember from when I was young were Don Davidoff and Rusty (the Hanoverian one not Ulla Salzgebers one). Ever since it appears to have become more and more of a regular event 
Quite frankly I would appreciate if they could just move the approval time to 3yo and select them under saddle. This would also make sure only those colts get through who can actually be ridden. I also think it would be a smart idea to require semen testing.
And no it’s not correct that all colts get tested for doping. All colts get sampled and then an (unknown!) number of testings is performed.
Those tests are expensive (easily 160-250 Euro each) and quite frankly I don’t even want to know how many samples end up being actually tested. Going by the interestingly low number of cases that get out I daresay it can’t be that many.
Poor guy is only 3! Some horses haven’t even been under saddle at that age. It sounds like this guy is being asked to do quite a few jobs before he is very mature mentally and physically.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8074137]
Poor guy is only 3! Some horses haven’t even been under saddle at that age. It sounds like this guy is being asked to do quite a few jobs before he is very mature mentally and physically.[/QUOTE]
As previously stated, ALL the young colts going through the licensing/testing are being asked to do the same jobs.
And they are not even technically stallions.
Perhaps Kareen or Fannie Mae can answer – did the stallion testing used to be held when the animals were older? Or has it always been this way?
During a heated discussion on “the good old days” and how those smart ODGs would wait till a horse was 4-5 before riding them, I did some research. Even back in the 1700’s racehorses were competing as 2 yr olds!
General riding horses (like for the US Army) tended to be not started u/s till they were 4yrs old but that was (probably) because there was alot of room in the West for them to stay. Seems most ranch horses were not started till year 4 either – horse starters remarked on how wild they were because they were virtually untouched till that time.
But for racing, they have always started early. Has it always been this way for WBs? My understanding is that all the formal testing, etc. didn’t really start till after WWII, right?
Just curious about the evolution of it all…
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8075779]
As previously stated, ALL the young colts going through the licensing/testing are being asked to do the same jobs.
And they are not even technically stallions.
Perhaps Kareen or Fannie Mae can answer – did the stallion testing used to be held when the animals were older? Or has it always been this way?
During a heated discussion on “the good old days” and how those smart ODGs would wait till a horse was 4-5 before riding them, I did some research. Even back in the 1700’s racehorses were competing as 2 yr olds!
General riding horses (like for the US Army) tended to be not started u/s till they were 4yrs old but that was (probably) because there was alot of room in the West for them to stay. Seems most ranch horses were not started till year 4 either – horse starters remarked on how wild they were because they were virtually untouched till that time.
But for racing, they have always started early. Has it always been this way for WBs? My understanding is that all the formal testing, etc. didn’t really start till after WWII, right?
Just curious about the evolution of it all…[/QUOTE]
I would be interested to know this as well.
Simple answer is no. In the ‘old days’ there used to be a 300d test for the State Stud stallions and it happened during their 3yo year. There was however not such a massive pressure for them to look more mature at 2.5 than they normally would because the ginormous spread in pricetags wasn’t there. In Hanover the stallion market traditionally was a semi-commercial event where the Celle State Stud got to have their picks before anyone else at fixed prices.As a result the best stallions were sure to be kept in the country and available for local breeders at affordable rates. On the other hand stallion rearers didn’t make six figures on their top candidates with the rest of the lot getting little to no interest.
The SPT has since been massively reduced so it no longer serves its purpose as a selective tool but has become more or less a marketing instrument.
Beginning in 2016 it will be altered yet again into a format that will allow more sportive comparison and require even less of the versatile performance test it has once been.
[QUOTE=Kareen;8078350]
Simple answer is no. In the ‘old days’ there used to be a 300d test for the State Stud stallions and it happened during their 3yo year. There was however not such a massive pressure for them to look more mature at 2.5 than they normally would because the ginormous spread in pricetags wasn’t there. In Hanover the stallion market traditionally was a semi-commercial event where the Celle State Stud got to have their picks before anyone else at fixed prices.As a result the best stallions were sure to be kept in the country and available for local breeders at affordable rates. On the other hand stallion rearers didn’t make six figures on their top candidates with the rest of the lot getting little to no interest.
The SPT has since been massively reduced so it no longer serves its purpose as a selective tool but has become more or less a marketing instrument.
Beginning in 2016 it will be altered yet again into a format that will allow more sportive comparison and require even less of the versatile performance test it has once been.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Kareen. I know when I first started breeding there was still what they called the 11 month testing by Celle. Now we are down to what? 30 days? And they are shown in either jumping or dressage?
Too much $$ always has an ill-effect…
