Loved Billy Beware.
Congrats to Sam Griffiths … he’s been a fixture at Badminton for a long time! 
I thought Townend would bring himself up even further with Armada, and he did. Dressage = 34th; XC = 4th; SJ = 2nd.
Tiana she finished for the USA - that’s a good thing. Kind of hung on to do it, it would seem. 25th out of 32 finishers and ? starters. The only other USA rider there was Clark & his 2 horses. When USA riders go to Badminton & Burghley in the same numbers that European riders come to Rolex KY, and are at the top of the results, the USA will be emerging as a stronger force in international eventing.
I am so glad to have the chance to read the knowledgeable commentary in this thread and understand that the course was not dangerous.
I think the comments, questions and observations of this Badminton are a great thing to have going forward toward WEG and in the sport. The designer gave everyone some things to think about, not just the riders.
BUT … the world outside of this thread, and outside of eyewitness information (and that’s most people in the U.S. who follow eventing even casually/at a distance) is using the word “carnage”, just from looking at the results. This is the impression they are talking and thinking. I think US eventing, as well as GBR eventing, needs to get out there and work on public perceptions of this Badminton. To be effective that needs to start yesterday. Otherwise “carnage” is what people will chat among themselves until next Badminton - maybe longer. “Remember that Badminton when … ?” It’s what people do.
As stated by the Brits: it’s supposed to be the Grand National of Eventing. People liked it, of course some will not. It was thrilling, exciting, and why I even thought twice about plodding along the lower levels in eventing anyways. I even had non-horse friends enjoy Badders! Quite frankly I haven’t heard the word carnage used- more of that in a football game, hockey, or Giant Slalom course.
And Tiana getting home? When AN and WFP & even Toddy all had falls? You need give credit where credit is due to that girl & her horse, who even I said looked hairy at the London Games as she went round. Too bad more Americans weren’t over there; a Badminton horse is something I would always support. It’s pretty special.
Sadly, I think the WEG will be a let down after this great event. Maybe not…will be interesting to see how the French course designer feels about the course the Italian just put together. How can you top it without taking it too far? Hearing Zara kind of ho-hum the dressage competition that the Olympics has been, as well as discuss the general feeling that 4s haven’t really required 4 horses as of late…I hope WEG is great, but it probably won’t be a Badminton, or a Burghley. Do our riders really value Team Competition enough to put everything towards making the Team & are they happy they skipped out on Badminton - given any of our riders even have a horse for it? Maybe it’s needed to keep the funding for training coming along, but, gosh I wish I was riding around Badminton & surely that’s a big :lil: :eek:
Absolutely lovely & so exciting to see a true XC & jumping competition. Hopefully, there are more to come.
Despite the number of falls (which I don’t really like), I liked that this was not at all a dressage competition. It might give some hope that a top 10 dressage isn’t required for a placing.
Unless this Badminton doesn’t spawn imitators and the weather wasn’t totally the cause, do you think that people will go to more blood again? Far too many horses simply either didn’t have enough bred in stamina or were simply not fit enough.
At the same time as Badminton, the Germans were running Marbach. They had two PP scores in the 20s for dressage. What kind of weather did they have?
Have we arrived at tipping point between the German view of eventing which is what we have been seeing for the past ten years and the classic one? Either this Badminton will go as a complete outlier or it might slow the rush to Germany.
Should they? Again the radio was superb and Zara made a point to mention that people who didn’t belong at the 4* level were competing at it because of it’s ease as of late.
And will the real event riders show up - if not then they either don’t have the horse or aren’t the competitor they’d like to think they are. Todd, Zara, Tiana, the Aussies, the Dutch, AN, WFP, Pippa, up & comers & some locals who think they have a chance? Sure they will be there! I hope some Americans will be, I’d love to see Philip & Boyd & Sinead & Lynn S & KS & Alison there if they have the horse. Badminton is the big leagues - Burghley too - everything else is kinda ‘meh’ now. Which is what a great 3 day event should do! Raise the bar & set the standard. If it’s not just a ad competition, some of these people could win - the prize money isn’t too shabby!
If they don’t want to because it’s too tough I’ll think a little less of them, sure, but I’m just a lowly ammy, doubt they care except when we don’t support US eventing like they do overseas because the bar is that much higher 
Now if it’s not there horses day, or they don’t have the horse for that day, then I sure hope they won’t enter - horsemanship comes first, and it’s too risky. Peter & Henny being a perfect example. The horse is great, a careful jumper - it wasn’t his day & he has a great rider. But if the weather wasn’t such a factor I think they could’ve done well.
DOC won Badminton when you had to be tough. I sure hope he encourages riders who he thinks have the horse to give it a try! Might not be our 3* winners here though. Maybe a Pirate…anyways, just some thoughts.
ETA: I’m not attacking the 3* horse & rider, it’s what we have here is the US - but if you can be more, I hope our riders would. And if I were to own a horse , or breed a horse, it’d be with the end goal of being a real 4* horse. My own personal preference.
You had just about the 3rd of the entries make it through cross country. All this talk about “horse friendly”, yet we had one rotational, another slamming into the middle of a jump, some limping off course (and yes, later they were fine). What is our goal here, to eliminate as many horses as possible before stadium? I was not there, I and just mainly going on numbers and what I’ve read, but throughout all this We don’t even seem to want to possibly question, was this an honest course that allowed the rider teams the ability to actually finish. Those weren’t amateurs out there that got eliminated or withdrew, those were top professionals and I would really doubt they publicly state that maybe, just maybe we pushed too far.
This is the impression they are talking and thinking. I think US eventing, as well as GBR eventing, needs to get out there and work on public perceptions of this Badminton. To be effective that needs to start yesterday. Otherwise “carnage” is what people will chat among themselves until next Badminton - maybe longer. “Remember that Badminton when … ?” It’s what people do.
The public perception, for all but the few here will see this as it states, a top level event that had 2/3 of the teams eliminated before they could even get to the final phase. If not “carnage” it will not be seen as sporting or as a good example of this sport. There may always be some attrition, but you cannot put a good spin on 35 of 124 getting to jump stadium.
I’ve been around sports most of my life, between sailing and now horses. Back when I sailed I saw this bravado attitude in both race committees and in competitors and I’ve watched when people and equipment got injured (broken) and in the worst case, died. There is a time to be brave, I’ve had those moments, then there is a time to stop and think, is this wise. When you lose 2/3’s of the field in one day, stop pointing a finger at the riders and say, “you should have ridden better” without questioning the officials and even ourselves and say, “was that the best of Eventing or the worst”. For my own self, it was not the best nor would I defend it as such.
I think it was tough but fair, just competed in tough condi t ions.
[QUOTE=JP60;7572310]
There may always be some attrition, but you cannot put a good spin on 35 of 124 getting to jump stadium.[/QUOTE]
Just to clarify, there were 83 starters, not 124.
Still not a very good success rate though… Though I do think it would have been a very different story in different weather conditions.
I will strongly encourage anyone who feels (understandably) critical based on statistics alone, to somehow find a way to view the xc coverage in its entirety (I was so lucky to be able to watch all 6+ hours live on BBC Sports) before you begin to cry foul. It was tough, but I thought very fair and what a 4* should look like. I think many pairs were not up to the very big challenge presented and the weather was certainly the wild card. I anticipate that many riders will up their A game and be on the money next time out. Some will realize they have a 3*, not 4* horse. And some did just have bad luck. It happens.
i was so thrilled to see how the frangible pins are now developed to such a high standard that they are mostly doing the job we always hoped they’d do, reliably.
[QUOTE=3dazey;7572400]
I will strongly encourage anyone who feels (understandably) critical based on statistics alone, to somehow find a way to view the xc coverage in its entirety (I was so lucky to be able to watch all 6+ hours live on BBC Sports) before you begin to cry foul. It was tough, but I thought very fair and what a 4* should look like. I think many pairs were not up to the very big challenge presented and the weather was certainly the wild card. I anticipate that many riders will up their A game and be on the money next time out. Some will realize they have a 3*, not 4* horse. And some did just have bad luck. It happens.
i was so thrilled to see how the frangible pins are now developed to such a high standard that they are mostly doing the job we always hoped they’d do, reliably.[/QUOTE]
ABSOLUTELY! I find it amazing that people will condemn the course based on numbers! I watched nearly all of the XC (when there wasn’t a flipping technical issue, that is), and thought the course was just what a Badminton course should be.
Not being there and only listening to Radio Badders, I also thought the numbers were important; but friends who were there in person said that it was fair, and that the winners had to fight for it in every phase. I think that is what this sport is about. Perhaps this Badminton will start the reclamation of the sport. One hopes.
[QUOTE=retreadeventer;7572492]
Not being there and only listening to Radio Badders, I also thought the numbers were important; but friends who were there in person said that it was fair, and that the winners had to fight for it in every phase. I think that is what this sport is about. Perhaps this Badminton will start the reclamation of the sport. One hopes.[/QUOTE]
I remember you, you were a voice of reason…I really want to walk away from y’all and I will after this, but I just cannot get you people. 2/3…2/3 of the field, a field with top riders, did not finish., You wave it off like “well they should have ridden better” or "that was a “real Eventing course, shame on those that couldn’t finish”. That’s what y’all sound like. Suck it up soldiers, this is war.
Fastnet had a race back in the late 70’s. In that race multiple boats were lost, people died, skipper’s continued with the mentality that "we can tough it out…until they could not. Ted Turner coined a phrase that created a lot of controversy when he he stated “there’s a fine line between racing and surviving, we raced the whole time”. He also raced on a 70 ft yacht that was not in the middle of the Force 10 storm that killed people.
This sport is not about rotational falls, it is not about testing frangile pins, it is not about losing 2/3’s of a field and then having the rest look like crap in stadium. Endurance? yes, but while skippers (re riders) will make the decisions to go despite the warnings, it is up to smarter people to say, not this, not today.
If y’all think that Eventing is about wiping out more then 50% of a competition list and calling it a fair course…no one made time…more then a third had penalties who made it…that was not competing, that was surviving.
No, I really want to support this sport at the upper levels, but not with a collective viewpoint that cannot question, that pushes aside valid statistics for the emotional viewpoint of “watch how those 35 did, see how fair it was?” Clearly I don’t agree, certainly most may think I have no valid position to have such an opinion, and you may be right. However, as Vineridge pointed out, the general public and by extension some even in this sport will look on those numbers and have their own feeling and I doubt it will be one of a “fair course”. They wont watch 6 hours of video, they wont have run a 4* course, they will only see that good horses got hurt, top riders fell off, most the field didn’t make it and they will ask, why? Fair course, horse friendly wont be their answer.
Cheers
Jf really? “Shame on you who couldn’t finish?” Unfortunate you interpret the words like that; quite the opposite. I’ve referred to many as good horsemen/women.
Frangible pins were invented for a reason. We can’t have jump cups out there.
But you’ve already made your mind up.
Now, I know nothing s take this with the most salt.
Perhaps, without the conditions it could have been a fair course. However with the conditions, I don’t really feel that to be true. The course designer needs to take into account that anything could happen weather wise. Will that mean that sometimes people will end up with a much easier course if the weather behaves? Maybe. But if it keeps people safer and finishing, I’m all for it.
It’s great that frangible pins exist, but lets not forget that we dont actually want them to break. Broken pins mean that the horses aren’t actually getting successfully over the fence. I’m sure it’s hard to walk the line between making it a true jumping test, and making it dangerous. In this case, though, I’m calling foul.
[QUOTE=3dazey;7572400]
I will strongly encourage anyone who feels (understandably) critical based on statistics alone, to somehow find a way to view the xc coverage in its entirety (I was so lucky to be able to watch all 6+ hours live on BBC Sports) before you begin to cry foul. It was tough, but I thought very fair and what a 4* should look like. I think many pairs were not up to the very big challenge presented and the weather was certainly the wild card. I anticipate that many riders will up their A game and be on the money next time out. Some will realize they have a 3*, not 4* horse. And some did just have bad luck. It happens.
i was so thrilled to see how the frangible pins are now developed to such a high standard that they are mostly doing the job we always hoped they’d do, reliably.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree. I watched the entire thing. The weather absolutely had something to do with it. Read Peter Atkins’ blog about it. I saw horses slip, just on turns, if not on the approach to a fence. And the crazy wind!
Some riders, I believe, would have remounted and continued before the one fall rule as they looked to just gotten popped off. Some riders with a runout chose to retire, some chose to go on. If it had been a bright sunny dry Rolex Kentucky 2014 day I’m sure the results would have been different. Clark Montgomery gave his very good insight saying they had contemplated not even running Glen because of conditions. But as he said, you’re not in first after dressage at Badminton all that often…
I do wish the media would quit using words like “carnage” (I have seen it) because to me that sounds like horses are dying or are seriously injured. We’ve had enough of that truly happening without making it sound like it’s happening when it isn’t.
But wait …
… part of the stats is the actual injury rate, and such things as overnight in a hospital (people or equine), unable to compete the next day due to injury, and even more lasting injuries.
Best I know at this time, this is one of the better 4*'s in that respect. I believe the only human trip to the hospital was Rebecca Howard, who seems to have transported herself there under her own steam, and didn’t stay long. Horse-wise, even better, although I’m not privy to all the details on horse condition.
A Big Fat Letter Score is only painful to the ego in eventing. That kind of attrition is NOT a factor in determining if the sport is injuring horses or people. And that appears to be what happened at this Badminton.
Had they been hauling them off in horse & people ambulances, that would be different.
And yet … as we see in this thread, on FB, in barn chatter … “carnage” is the untutored interpretation of 42% completions at a 4*. Even though weather is a commonly accepted reason for high attrition - a straightforward downpour is easier for the public to interpret, though.
(What did happen at Jersey Fresh that had such a high attrition rate? By comparison with this Badminton.)
JP60, at least use the correct numbers. Look at actual starters in dressage; starters of xc (a fair number withdrew before XC); finishers of XC divided by starters if XC. I don’t think the number withdrawn between XC and stadium was any anomaly at this level.
Thing is I don’t think the statistics represent the course in this particular case at all. What the statistics don’t say is “and all these retirements are because these riders are choosing to re-route these horses to Luhmulen to have a good run at WEG selection” even at the end of the day, a lot of those riders that retired after one stop will have known that if they got round the remainder of the course they could be in with a shot, were retiring in order to re-route elsewhere.
And AN and Toddy both had “plopped off like pony clubber” type falls, just a bad day at the office for them. Everyone else jumped the fences they fell off at with no real problems. AN and Quimbo didn’t have a great run at their last event either, he had a stop. Wasn’t expecting WFP to fall (and again, no one else at all had an issue with that fence!), in fact I missed it on the coverage because I figured by that point he was home and hosed so I went for a few minutes to make a drink.
I certainly wasn’t watching it with my heart in my mouth and my eyes shut some of the time the way I have watched events in the past. The fence that produced the 2 nastiest looking falls, 18A, I think may have been different had the B element been left in. Those that fell were going too fast over that fence. If they had to turn at jump after it, they wouldn’t have been going that fast. The other fence that caused problems, the hole with the brush at the top of the bank, was in the course last year and pretty much everyone popped through it no problems at all. Footing issue this year maybe?
And then some horses just plain out were not fit enough. If you go and find an interview with Paul Tapner (horse and country TV maybe?) he talks about watching the earlier riders gallop up the hill to the new pond and then have no horse left by the Huntsmans Close. He took it a little easier in the early parts of the course and had enough horse left to finish.
I watched about half of the rides via FEI TV over my laptop. And while I can’t remember which ones, I saw a number of slips and slides, and I also saw riders taking odd little jogs in their routes to do what looked like avoiding the most heavily traveled lines, which looked pretty torn up.
While one can deplore ignorant dramatizing about how hard the course was, it sure looked to me like the combination of a difficult course and pretty ugly conditions (important to take into account the wind too, as noted above) that this course might have been a little too much. I know, I’m not following in the spirit of galloping on with your broken arm in a sling made of your stock tie, but I think that if you love this sport, you should hope that it can design courses and make choices about how to compete that minimizes the kind of attention drawn by the pretty craptastic completion rate.
Appearances matter. All it would have taken would have been that rotational fall going less luckily, and there would be a hue and cry to Stop The Insanity. It would be dumb, but what might be dumber is not heeding the risk and protecting the ability to continue to run eventing XC in a challenging way without some bunch of ignorant busybodies rolling in via national laws and wrecking it all for you.
Sure, no one died, and most errors produced runouts and not terrible-looking falls and a whole lot of no doubt quite exhausted horses. But is it smart to design a course that only has a decent probability of being completed by a majority of the qualified entrants if the weather is perfect? I am not so sure.
