Badminton anyone?

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7573836]
No offense meant to anyone, but Burghley last year seems to have cracked the nut on what a modern, short format 4* can be. It was not a dressage competition; the top five would have been in the top five with or without the coefficient. It seemed to be tough, but fair. They had 42 finishers out of 68 starters, so just under 2/3 got round.

Although you might say that Burghley really WAS a dressage competition because the first five after dressage ended up being the first five at the end. The dressage score range was very similar, with this year’s Badminton’s being a slight bit better.

So would y’all want to say that Burghley last year was not a real 4*? Not hard enough? XC not influential enough? From 2010, Burghley seems to average about 2/3 finishing; That also seems to be the historical average for Badminton, at least as long as I’ve been crunching numbers.[/QUOTE]

What was the weather last year…

[QUOTE=Equibrit;7573597
MK announcement;
http://www.midweekherald.co.uk/news/exclusive_mary_king_to_retire_olympic_horse_1_3596911[/QUOTE]

This is not entirely accurate.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/future-imperial-cavalier-undecided/

Interesting article;

http://www.eventingworldwide.com/training-for-safety/

[QUOTE=Lori B;7573797]
if that rotational fall had produced a more harmful outcome, then advocates for this course’s appropriateness would be in a whole 'nother kinda shitstorm, and would be backpedaling as fast as you could.[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure which fall this you are referring to (apologies), but if we are talking about Calista E, there is no way that was due to course inappropriateness. No other combinations had any issues at that fence, the poor horse was on an absolutely mega misser.

Well, listening to te radio during SJ you could very well say that maybe Burghley and Badminton as of late have been a bit too easy, based on what the likes of Zara Philips, Mark Todd, Tim Price, and a couple other interviewed had to say. They all said Badminton was easier as of late; Zara said people were unfortunately bringing their 3* horses to get around…not understanding what a “real 4*” was.

Someone should maybe post the link to AN’s interview the day before XC where he was griping about the 18b removal. He’s been riding around a long time. I think he knows how to evaluate a course, and just because he didn’t have as good as go as he’d like doesn’t mean the course was unfair.

And surprised no one has mentioned the max height SJ which was presumably done to reaffirm that Badminton was a jumping competition, and one to be proud of. No let up for the horses or the riders (or if they did; I missed it, sorry!)

I hope the excitement that Badminton has created for the sport continues with subsequent three day events. I mean Jersey Fresh didn’t go well, and does anyone really care? Not really getting the attention…can’t hold a candle to Badminton. And it shouldn’t, really…or should it for WEG purposes? I guess it all depends on what the WEG XC may be like…hmm, and Luhmuhlen?

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7573407]
One assumes that they will leave the course very nearly unchanged next year. Then it will be possible to evaluate the course fairly if the weather is decent. [/QUOTE]

Badminton changes direction every year. Next year, Hunstman’s Close will be near the beginning, the Lake more towards the end.

I find a lot of this discussion quite incongruous with what I saw and heard this weekend. Unlike in previous years, the riders seemed positive about the course and satisfied that their concerns were heard (as with 18b). It’s not as if they were calling for Hugh Thomas’s head on a plate, as they were in 1999, when Badminton was a swampy mess complete with swimming horses and riders. That year, 73 horses started XC and 29 finished. Long format, too, with much of the attrition coming on steeplechase. A number of riders continued on after falls to complete – which I think would have happened this weekend if it was still allowed under the rules.

Eventing is an outdoor sport. Weather is always going to be a factor. Horses are quite capable of dealing with less-than-perfect conditions. (The only rider who completed two horses this weekend, Izzy Taylor, comes from a strong hunting background.) The OT is for ideal conditions; if conditions are other-than-perfect, you adjust accordingly.

Mary King’s ride drew lots of gasps from the crowd, starting before the bank incident. The horse was not going well. Mary did not look very in sync with him. I was hoping she’d retire after the bank. Then I was hoping they’d stay upright at the Vicarage Vee. When the stop happened, my friend and I were saying out loud ‘Please go home.’ It was hard to watch, and I wouldn’t blame it on the course design. And I say this as a huge fan of Mary King.

[QUOTE=goodmorning;7573916]
I mean Jersey Fresh didn’t go well, and does anyone really care? Not really getting the attention…can’t hold a candle to Badminton. And it shouldn’t, really…or should it for WEG purposes? I guess it all depends on what the WEG XC may be like…hmm, and Luhmuhlen?[/QUOTE]

I do think that Tiana should still be in good consideration. I think a lot will depend still on Luhmulen…and who is sound (rider and horse) as we get closer.

It’s interesting. I looked the eventing at Pratoni del Vivaro since 2008, and they have run one CIC 3* in all those years. This man doesn’t seem to have ever designed a 3CCI other than the 2007 Europeans, much less a 4 one before. I’ve done a good bit of searching to see what other courses he’s designed but cannot come up with anything.

There was a 3* test event in 2007. Since the FEI started posting the officials, ie since 2011, della Chiesa has not been the course designer at Pratoni del Vivaro for their annual FEI competition. Nor is he the course designer for the Milan 3*

If you search the FEI database under the person search, they have no data for him, but they have data for all other course designers under the Person search. Well, I managed to find him in the Person database. Here’s his page:
https://data.fei.org/Person/Detail.aspx?p=41A0D4326CC32F6D6BFF1EF51A4F735D

He designed a CIC 3* at Malmo in 2011. He also designed a CIC1*, CCI2* and CIC 3*in Italy in 2011. That’s it for his recent experience as an Eventing Course Designer, as found by a Google search of the FEI database.

The vast majority FEI database results are as a Jumper rider with quite a few as an eventing TD.

This man is qualified to design Badminton WHY?

Interesting tidbit from the FEI Database. Mark Phillips is not registered for 2014. Reckon he’s retired?

[QUOTE=JER;7573922]
Badminton changes direction every year. Next year, Hunstman’s Close will be near the beginning, the Lake more towards the end.

I find a lot of this discussion quite incongruous with what I saw and heard this weekend. Unlike in previous years, the riders seemed positive about the course and satisfied that their concerns were heard (as with 18b). It’s not as if they were calling for Hugh Thomas’s head on a plate, as they were in 1999, when Badminton was a swampy mess complete with swimming horses and riders. That year, 73 horses started XC and 29 finished. Long format, too, with much of the attrition coming on steeplechase. A number of riders continued on after falls to complete – which I think would have happened this weekend if it was still allowed under the rules.

Eventing is an outdoor sport. Weather is always going to be a factor. Horses are quite capable of dealing with less-than-perfect conditions. (The only rider who completed two horses this weekend, Izzy Taylor, comes from a strong hunting background.) The OT is for ideal conditions; if conditions are other-than-perfect, you adjust accordingly.

Mary King’s ride drew lots of gasps from the crowd, starting before the bank incident. The horse was not going well. Mary did not look very in sync with him. I was hoping she’d retire after the bank. Then I was hoping they’d stay upright at the Vicarage Vee. When the stop happened, my friend and I were saying out loud ‘Please go home.’ It was hard to watch, and I wouldn’t blame it on the course design. And I say this as a huge fan of Mary King.[/QUOTE]

I think riders are keeping their horses a little less fit to be more competitive in the dressage. That would for sure catch you out on a course like this one. Particularly some of the hotter TB’s, which could explain why some of them had trouble with fitness on Saturday. It could also be that some of the less scopier horses were caught out because of the footing.

As for the perception of people like JP60, I think some newcomers who have really only been around during teh short format, feel that the dressage leader has a right to remain ahead if he’s at least an average xc horse and are up in arms if xc is hard. Or feel that optimum time should be doable even in bad weather. If you’ve watched some of the rides, most the horses that finished well looked pretty good all around. Even the horses that retired looked good until they got tired. Very few horses looked like they were having a hard go the whole way.

As for optimum time, in situations where there’s a weather component, I almost think it’s safer to keep optimum time as is and thus unatainable because I feel like riders are more likely to make better decisions as to pace if “making the time” is removed as an option.

Given that the course designer has been clear that he was aiming for a real Badminton and the weather couldn’t have been completely unexpected given it’s England in May, I would have hoped riders would have had their horses extra fit. I really commend those whose horses weren’t fit enough for retiring when appropriate, even though it was a selection trial for WEG for many countries. That’s horsemanship.

The solution to all of this to stop rewarding lower dressage scores once you hit 65%. Start the penalties there. That will eliminate some of the incentive for people to shortchange fitness in an attempt to keep contact with the dressage leaders. They keep tinkering with the xc, the heart of the sport, when the solution is in right there in day 1. Do we really care that one eventer scores a 65% and the other an 80% in the dressage? Is that really what eventing should be about? A 65% is a good score in dressage and takes a horse with good gaits with a good rider. That horse should be the standard against which the others are judged.

Actually, I am of the opinion that good gaits shouldn’t be rewarded so much. Obedience, trainability, freedom of movement - sure. But let a not-so-great moving horse have a chance just as much as an inherently good moving one. Otherwise we get caught up in an “arms race” of movement, which isn’t what this sport is (supposed to be) about.

Viney, there aren’t a lot of 4*s to ‘practice’ designing…I forget, but if you watch the course walk, it’s obvious the previous course designer had a heavy hand in this years course. It’s a very informative video.

Anyone notice how similar the Jersey Fresh water & the in to the Mirage Pond are? Obviously the 3* was much more forgiving - people were squeezing in 3-5 strides (?), the water was bright blue, and the out much easier - but, kinda interesting…

Great Badminton video: http://youtu.be/wWBedWxIKTU

2014 Badminton:

Starters: 83

Started XC: 78

JP60 ; This mass of one would rather see 80+ entries ride down center line on the last day than 20 some do stadium poorly. But that’s just me.

Granted, I went to state schools, but my ciphering puts JP60’s desired outcome for XC completion at Badminton right at 100%.

[QUOTE=Equibrit;7573903]
Interesting article;

http://www.eventingworldwide.com/training-for-safety/[/QUOTE]

Introduction by Jean Mitchell (Eventing Ireland), Organiser of the Forum, and Giuseppe della Chiesa, the new Chairman of the FEI Eventing Committee and the FEI Eventing Risk Management Advisor.

Interesting.

What’s the date of the article? If della Chiesa was the new eventing chairman, it must have been in about 2009.

I’ve looked at every single European event in 2011, and the four big names are Mark Phillips, Ian Stark, Pierre Michelet, and Rudiger Schwartz who does almost all the German courses except for Luhmuhlen.

Perhaps Badminton didn’t want a Big Name.

I did watch the course video when it first came out. It looked really imposing but not a disaster in waiting. I’d think for course design at that level, you’d want someone with vast knowledge of terrain and lots of experience designing CCI courses.

[QUOTE=riderboy;7574017]
Granted, I went to state schools, but my ciphering puts JP60’s desired outcome for XC completion at Badminton right at 100%.[/QUOTE]
There you are…

riderboy, ncrider, I apologize. Clearly I was not seeing the situation and environment as you presented. While I hoped to present an alternate viewpoint, you’ve help me see my own flaws and lack of understanding. I think you both completely figured me out as what I am, some low level wannbe lacking talent, just hoping for attention. Well I got that. Whew. At this point I will gladly defer to your expertise in all aspects eventing (as well Doodlebug1). I can only hope that at some point, though I doubt for I’ll never get the experience y’all have, but at some point I can see what eventing is really about. Obviously at this point any more input from me would be only disrespecting your better understanding. I’ve felt the leather…

Perhaps I’ll take doodlebeen up on her suggestion, Eventing does not need another hack rider or some opinionated noob. Thank you. I feel …free.

Keeping a bit of perspective …

Remember Di Grazia’s first year as Rolex KY designer - the first 5 out of the start box went down on rider falls? Including KOC. And there were several misses at the lake. Anything and everything could be blamed, other than the course. But it was a new philosophy of course for the horse park, and the riders seemed to need an adjustment period. The next year, not such a big deal.

There’s kind of a cycle in eventing … the riders and horses get clued in to course design questions, and courses in general must evolve again to keep it competitive. Again and again more events become win-able on dressage (or close to it), until the next round new xc course questions.

There was a recognized event that introduced an entirely new problem to the Nov division, one that area’s novice division had never seen before. Oh, the wailing and gnashing on course walk day! Everyone had their excuse in hand before they even entered the start box. Then 45+ pairs jumped through it without a hitch, and only 3 had one stop before clearing it. That problem is still there, and no one even mentions it any more.

That’s my expectation for future courses like this Badminton.

[QUOTE=JP60;7574153]
There you are…

riderboy, ncrider, I apologize. Clearly I was not seeing the situation and environment as you presented. While I hoped to present an alternate viewpoint, you’ve help me see my own flaws and lack of understanding. I think you both completely figured me out as what I am, some low level wannbe lacking talent, just hoping for attention. Well I got that. Whew. At this point I will gladly defer to your expertise in all aspects eventing (as well Doodlebug1). I can only hope that at some point, though I doubt for I’ll never get the experience y’all have, but at some point I can see what eventing is really about. Obviously at this point any more input from me would be only disrespecting your better understanding. I’ve felt the leather…

Perhaps I’ll take doodlebeen up on her suggestion, Eventing does not need another hack rider or some opinionated noob. Thank you. I feel …free.[/QUOTE]

No need to apologize to me, I respect your point of view. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with it! Reasonable people can have honest differences of opinion.

Derek Di Grazia’s first Rolex was 2011. I’m looking at my spreadsheet, and KOC didn’t ride. There were eight XC eliminations: Ringwood Magister, Twizzle, Arthur, R-Star, Mojito, Destination Known, My Sedona, and Gaelic Marriage. There were three retirements on XC: Exploring, Our Questionnaire, and The Alchymst. 28 finished out of 48 starters. 17 finished XC without jumping penalties, and there were three double clears in XC.

I was under the impression it was his first when KOC came off Veronica at the first water. I think she was first to go. Then others that followed were coming to grief here and there, mostly drop landings.

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7574271]
I was under the impression it was his first when KOC came off Veronica at the first water. [/QUOTE]

That was in 2012.