Balky, started late horse: success with work ethic install?

[Abbie.S]

Hmm. My main riding gelding is one of these. I adore him.

This horse isn’t spoiled, he’s not bratty. It harkens back to the phrase, “so they are started, so they go”. He simply doesn’t have much motivation - and why would he? From his point of view, no one has asked much of him in his life and he’s developed a way of existing that works for him. Now you’re coming in an demanding things of him and asking he change everything he thought he had working for him for the last decade. I’d be struggling with that, too.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree with mvp. This horse needs a job, not a dictator. I have started a lot of “late-bloomers” (by no fault of their own) and my experience is that most of them struggle more than your average 3yo with having the tables turned on them. That is not to say that many don’t turn out to be excellent riding horses. But there’s a lot to be said about the brain malleability you have with a young horses versus an older horse - not so much unlike people. How much easier is it to change your opinions and develop mental flexibility when you’re young compared to when you’re middle-aged?

If he’s a nice horse and you have the skill set to ride him and the creativity to help him gain the motivation to work (meaning you don’t have a set agenda for him that he must live up to) I’d take him in a heartbeat. But I also see the tendency towards lightness in front as an asset; it tells me the horse can get back on his hocks without protest or issue, and you bet I want that working for me. The trick is the “working for you” part.

[Abbie.S]

Hmm. My main riding gelding is one of these. I adore him.

This horse isn’t spoiled, he’s not bratty. It harkens back to the phrase, “so they are started, so they go”. He simply doesn’t have much motivation - and why would he? From his point of view, no one has asked much of him in his life and he’s developed a way of existing that works for him. Now you’re coming in an demanding things of him and asking he change everything he thought he had working for him for the last decade. I’d be struggling with that, too.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree with mvp. This horse needs a job, not a dictator. I have started a lot of “late-bloomers” (by no fault of their own) and my experience is that most of them struggle more than your average 3yo with having the tables turned on them. That is not to say that many don’t turn out to be excellent riding horses. But there’s a lot to be said about the brain malleability you have with a young horses versus an older horse - not so much unlike people. How much easier is it to change your opinions and develop mental flexibility when you’re young compared to when you’re middle-aged?

If he’s a nice horse and you have the skill set to ride him and the creativity to help him gain the motivation to work (meaning you don’t have a set agenda for him that he must live up to) I’d take him in a heartbeat. But I also see the tendency towards lightness in front as an asset; it tells me the horse can get back on his hocks without protest or issue, and you bet I want that working for me. The trick is the “working for you” part.

[2DogsFarm]

I had no Cattle Teaching Tools when I got my 15yo WB (COTH Giveaway).
He had good breeding, had been shown regularly in Australia (where he had been bred) & then in FL where he was sold as a 6yo.

Test ride went fine, but when I got him home he went to Light In Front when asked for canter.
Never a full-out rear, but at 17h+ this was not something I wanted to happen. EVER.

I gave him a Pass for having had a career as a Jumper* - thinking maybe he had been allowed/encouraged to go FAST when asked for canter.
*COTH poster recognized him & sent me - via PM - his show record - both in Dressage & GP Jumper

This is what she sent:
Horse: JAYBEE ALTAIR
Events:
Event Name Date Rider Name Class Level Dressage % Place
WOODFORD 22 Jun 2002 Julianne Reardon 1.10-1.20m 0 2
Murwillumbah 3 Nov 2001 Julianne Reardon 0 2
Murwillumbah NSW 2 Nov 2001 Adam Mellers 0 2
Gold Coast 30 Aug 2001 Adam Mellers 0 1
Caboolture Indoor Champs 3 Aug 2001 Adam Mellers 0 3
Proserpine 23 Jun 2001 Julianne Reardon 0 RD1
Maryborough 24 May 2001 Adam Mellers 0 1
Brookfield 19 May 2001 Adam Mellers 0 3
Ipswich 10 May 2001 Adam Mellers 0 2

And here I was, asking for a soft depart, to continue as a slow, controlled canter, not jet propulsion heading for a fence.
My (Dressage) trainer got on to see if she could feel something I was doing was at fault.
She rode once, he went light, she got off & told me she would not ride him.
I get that, he was not totally dangerous, but training is her living.
About a year later - working with her about 2X month & riding on my own - he had a lovely depart, so soft it felt like ll I did was think “Up” and he cantered off.
He was the Sam - Jaybee Altair - in my sig & I miss him still.

So, my $.02 is:
If horse has a good mind, he can be made to see you are in charge, not meaning him harm & the Balk is not negotiable.

[soloudinhere]

Not worth it if it’s going to be your only horse and you have any sort of goals you want to meet.

If you want to spend years sorting out the issue only to have a horse that is too old to do what you want to do, then sure. If you’re okay with it never resolving, then sure.

No guarantee that cowboying this horse around will change it. He’s big and strong enough to learn some pretty spectacular evasive maneuvers if he’s committed to the idea.

There’s a big difference, IMO, between horses that are broke in on the track in a strict, repeatable routine and then turned out, and the horse who is lackadasically started with basic expectations and then tossed into a field. A horse with no try will never reach the limits of their potential and be a source of much frustration along the way.

[Mersidoats]

I started my 13 year old from scratch in February. We had some “forward” issues: stop, kick, back-up. With a well- fitting saddle, and some ulcer treatment they went away. She’s going beautifully WTC today - looks like a million dollars and stops people in their tracks when they see her go.

I started her with ground-work, and much like a western colt-starter: flexions, forward off of the inside leg and seat, pressure off when she gave the right answer. I added in ground driving and longing as we progressed, mainly to build strength and endurance. We spent about a month and a half in the round pen reinforcing these concepts. It may have taken her longer to get the concepts than a baby, but she got them. Lots of daily 15 minute rides. Lots of patience and lightning quick releases for good answers. Consistent application of the aids.

You may not have the same malleability as a baby, but you make up for it in maturity and focus: no baby hijinks. Good luck.

[joiedevie99]

@soloudinhere

There’s a big difference, IMO, between horses that are broke in on the track in a strict, repeatable routine and then turned out, and the horse who is lackadasically started with basic expectations and then tossed into a field. A horse with no try will never reach the limits of their potential and be a source of much frustration along the way.

This is so true. A horse that had a job and a work ethic at 3 or 4 years old, even if only at the training track for a few months, is a totally different animal than the one that made it to adulthood having never been started, or having been started poorly and given up on.

[enjoytheride]

I had a mare who wasn’t started until 12, then went to a beginner who caused a balking problem, sat until she was 15, then I got her. Total restart. Months of installation of forward. Once she bonded to me there wasn’t anything she wouldn’t do. We were successfully eventing at BN when she was 19 and then got cancer and died.

My current gelding was started at 6 and sat until 8. It’s taken him awhile to not spooky at every single thing but he’s honest and good hearted.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[soloudinhere]

@Mersidoats

You may not have the same malleability as a baby, but you make up for it in maturity and focus: no baby hijinks. Good luck.

Depends entirely on the personality of the horse involved. Many horses do not develop maturity and focus without a job.

[streamline]

I have a balky horse, that ended up rearing once (okay twice)

Great breeding, movement, kinda pretty. Paid 700 bucks for him off the track. He’s the bane of my existence, when it’s good it’s amazing. When it’s bad it’s bad. My husband hates this horse and it’s probably the number one thing that we argue over.

Anyways I would never want another balky, stubborn horse again. I kinda skimmed over your post. Thankfully we have 3 other sane, well behaved horses. I think if I just had my balky horse I would lose any love I had for the horses.

We are good friends with a well respected colt starter/problem horse fixer and he said he wouldn’t want to touch this horse.

He gets to live in my pasture for the rest of his time.

[beowulf]

I characterize balkiness as a soundness issue, not a “late starting” issue. But the two can intersect, and in the case of horses that are started late, a physical issue is usually present…

[candyappy]

I have had 2 horses who were basically started very late and both were fine. I think it is all about how you start them. I did mine just as I would a youngster. taking the time for them to adjust mentally , taking the time for their bodies to adjust to actually working and carrying a rider and the time to learn what I was asking before adding more.

So many riders think the horse is grown so they just get on and start going full speed. I would balk too.

I am not saying this horse was started like that, but I am guessing he was pushed.

I would try him for a month and see how you get on.

[HungarianHippo]

I bought just such a horse-- he was 10, had very poor work ethic. A bred to the hilt Hungarian Horse and it’s hard not to get suckered in by the Furioso II bloodlines and he was simply beautiful. Kind eye.
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But he was a powerful horse (16.2h, 1350lb) who learned that explosive reactions were useful when he’d had enough of this distasteful thing called Work. So he passed through several owners, getting cheaper with every sale. But, his evasions were 1) crow-hops leading to a big buck (if not addressed properly) or 2) the always-fun Sideways Teleport. While a couple times he succeeded in tossing me, for the most part you could work through his crap with solid riding fundamentals and it didn’t feel dangerous. So as he gained fitness and trust, and as he realized that his cute behaviors were not producing the desired results anymore, we settled into a really happy 18-year partnership. He was an amazing horse that I still miss. (He’s the source of my name Hungarian Hippo!) BUT: I wasn’t into competing, I was happy with a horse I could canter around the big fields on, jump logs or other low fences, and do some half-assed backyarder dressage. In otherwords, his work ethic absolutely improved t the point that he was a fun, willing ride. But I wasn’t pushing him hard, and I had no schedule in mind.
Would it have worked if I had competition goals? No way. And if he had a rear? No flipping way.

[IPEsq]

@beowulf

I characterize balkiness as a soundness issue, not a “late starting” issue. But the two can intersect, and in the case of horses that are started late, a physical issue is usually present…

I agree. After having the king of physical issues and balking tactics (including many of the off the ground variety), and then myself being recruited to ride other slow to start horses of the same variety, I agree that there is a huge range of behavior possible here and true balking I think is 99% a soundness problem.

There’s some herd bound stuff, some gate sour stuff, other destination addiction kind of stuff. Then there was the one stallion I rode for a while who on his lazy walk down to the arena liked to plant and rear to show off his cajones to all the pastures we passed, but who was a complete worker bee in the arena. And then there is the screw you behavior. It’s a very different body language. And on some horses you fear for your life. Others I can tell aren’t that committed to escalating to a point of flipping or whatever but the horse is just screaming at you that there is a problem that is a non-negotiable issue for them. A little gate napping is not this. Wanting to leave and go to the barn at dinner time is not this. Not wanting to walk into the arena at all might be a hint of it.

I think you could figure out on a trial if it’s fixable, or at least that you could come to an understanding that works for you. But do you want to take that trial to find out how committed he is to the balking? I would do a very extensive PPE if so and maybe use part of your trial to enlist an expert if you are not one. Occasionally you do get one that was started late because of the humans involved, but a lot of the time, the older horse who has just sat indicates that there’s been an issue with the horse. Might well be past injuries that aren’t a physical problem but they could very well have created an unfixable mental problem.

Having owned this problem, I would not knowingly buy this problem.

[BlueDrifter]

I wouldn’t walk into it again. I have had my guy almost 3 years, and it is just the last 6 months that have been good. Initially he was good, but then began tripping a lot and started getting balky. That progressed into light in front. Changed shoers, changed barns, did all sorts of soundness tests when he did come up lame, Osphos, prostride, mri. Nothing really showed up. In January I said “equioxx” and in spring I will look for another horse. Changed to a consistent training rider and he has come around and almost gotten sweet. Night and day. So I will go along with balkiness being a pain issue. I still don’t know if he had a soft tissue injury from tripping and time alone has made him better, or the Equioxx is that good.

Unless you were willing to spend a couple years re-training, I would probably pass.

[Suspiria]

FWIW, i just sold a sticky/balky horse. She wasn’t light in front and wasn’t even a late start, but by age 5 when she still thought that “forward” was a negotiable thing, i decided a low-expectation trail home would suit her better. I wanted her to jump and she didn’t want to be in front of the leg, and at my age I am too old to want to spend my whole ride pedalling like a bicycle.

So i would pass.

[Bluey]

Some horses are like a square peg we are trying to fit into a round hole.

That is a bad fit, just irritates the peg and the hole.

If a horse is that, this one may or not, but it probably is one more reason he is still green, a tough decision if to take the time to find out and then having to return it to the seller for the same price.

[moonlitoaksranch]

Hmm, he might not be used to being muscle sore after riding. He might have some mild joint pain starting to bother him. I think long slow distance would be good to build him up. Long trail rides every other day until he gets used to being sore and can push through it. Riding with a friend may help. Otherwise, big trail loops at a park so he doesn’t always know when he’s going to get back to the trailer. He will learn to trust you more.

[B_and_B]

Two things I’d ask: is he bored or is he in pain?
Any way of working him outside the ring on long trail rides? If he is smart, he may be getting bored in the ring especially since at this point in his training he really isn’t doing anything mentally challenging, just being told to go forward? Forward is sometimes easier to install if the horse doesn’t know it is happening to them because they are out on a trail looking at the world. I marvel at the willingness of our horses to go in circles for hours, but we are asking for an amazing amount of mental obedience and discipline from an animal designed to be moving constantly over miles of varied territory.
Also, I agree with the poster that noted there are different types of ‘light’ and that pain is often involved in really balky cases. My beloved thoroughbred had a terrifying sort of ‘light’: he combined it with running backwards and a frightening ability to stand on his hind legs, not just hop a little. I have no doubt he would have flipped if provoked hard enough. It was why I retired him to my farm when I went to graduate school instead of leasing him out. It is a very different feeling from just balky. In his case, it was a learned evasion that had started as a response to back pain caused by Lyme disease, which took us far too long to figure out. Once he learned that tactic, it was a tool in his box that came out whenever he was feeling over-faced or was not properly warmed up (that pain thing again, I think).

[Bogie]

I have had two balky horses. The first one had been ridden in draw reins by a previous owner. He got “light” in front when he felt trapped. Never went up high but the problem was the girl who rode him would get off and put him away when he did it. Very smart horse. When he stopped wanting to play, he would give a small rear and wait for you to get off. I worked with a trainer to fix it. We took the pressure off him, changed the questions a lot, and eventually found that what he loved in life was foxhunting. Once he found the right job and realized we wouldn’t crank him down he never reared again.

Current horse is a draft x mare. She spent a couple of years being trail ridden and not asked to do much . When I first got on her, she would work for 10 or 15 minutes and then stop, squeal and buck. She occasionally tried to rub me off on a tree. She never got light in front, so I worked through it with the help of spurs and a lot of patience. One day she decided that what I was asking her to do wasn’t that difficult. She also adores foxhunting so that got her thinking forward. I still have some sticky days, but she just needed an attitude readjustment and to understand her “new” job.

I would not take a horse with a serious rear. There’s a huge difference between getting a bit light and going all the way up.

[soloudinhere]

Well, I personally wouldn’t take on someone else’s problem for a month only to then pay them money for the horse because he’s “proven” that he’s nice enough for their price.

This kind of horse should be free to whoever is willing to deal with it, whether he’s bored or in pain or whatever doesn’t matter. What you see on the day you try is what you’re paying for.

I don’t agree that it is 100% a soundness issue. A lot of horses correctly determine that being turned out with their friends is a lot more fun than having a job. Some you can train out of it because they are generally tractable, human oriented horses who were raised correctly as very young horses. Others were not correctly raised around people and will never respect them after years of being out with their buddies and never asked to do anything. Horses that were meant for or trained on the track fall into the first category because they were always meant to have a job and raised as such. A lot of other products of amateur breeding efforts and people who don’t know how to train young horses do not fall into that category.