This whole food zone thing is new to us, and unfortunately when we bought the house, we were on a timeline (corp relo and our other house in AL had sold) and there wasn’t anything else for sale that was attractive. So we didn’t pay as much attention to the flood zone as we should have paid; heck, I figured that meant it flooded on average every 100 years! Now I know differently! I never lived anywhere where flooding could be an issue. I grew up on the Chesapeake Bay in VA, we didn’t have flooding - we had high tide! 
I have been nervous about have a barn in the flood plain just in case all of a sudden water started rising in the middle of the night, when we aren’t home, etc., when I couldn’t get to the horses to get them to higher ground. So being above flood elevation is ideal. I guess I just need to figure out 1) if the neighbors would be offended 2) what the prop line set back is, 3) where exactly our septic drainage field is located &/or 4) if we build on the slope, if we can even make it work and how much it would ultimately cost.
After you find out about whether your location in red will work due to drain field, neighbor set backs, etc., I would get your contractor to come out with a transit level and some wooden markers to set out the corners of the barn and mark on the wooden 1"x1" posts the grade needed to make the barn level. This will help you to figure how much of a change you will have to make and you can also use the posts to show the area you will have to clear and how quickly the slope will change over the distance you have to work with.
You could make the area leading down from your barn to the large field in the flood plan a sacrifice paddock/ dry lot putting in cattle carpet and pea gravel or rock dust that would help to control erosion from the barn.
I like the idea of having a pasture area to the front of the property in case you have flooding, your horses won’t be stuck in a stall until the water goes down. Also having land on 100 year flood plan, some of that soil can be quite boggy during certain times of the year, even if it doesn’t flood. If you are having leg funk issues, hoof issues or shoeing issues, you can turn them out on drier, less boggy fields until things firm up.
I would also consider putting in some sort of planting to screen your neighbors from the barn.
Have you thought of where your manure pile will be in relation to your barn and home?
I just don’t know. I’m about ready to just cry “UNCLE” and see if we can’t just sell the barn. I talked with the county permitting office. We’ll need to be 25’ off our neighbor’s property line to the side, and 100’ from the road. That puts us somewhere in the area where perhaps the septic drain field resides. The Health Dept is sending me a request to fill out to have an inspector come out (which they would need to do at some point anyway during the permitting process), but I’m still thinking about how having horses come up and down the hillside will get messy and muddy and we’ll constantly be fighting mud, slick hillside, etc. (I kept a friend’s mares last fall and sent them home after one apparently slipped, well, we guess that is what happened, and she bruised her pelvis…). Although, jawa, cow carpet is a great idea!
I ran the numbers…the amount it will cost us for the barn, installation, additional site work, etc., I could pay the local going rate of full board on a horse for well over 8 years! I wasn’t counting having such significant site work done when we started this process. I would love to have horses at home and I really would rather enjoy the work that comes with them, but there is something to be said for being able to leave town for vacation and not have to worry about finding someone to feed, etc. We have young kids, so maybe this is just not our time for having horses at home. My husband & I would love to build a house one day; this isn’t our “forever” home, so maybe we’ll just wait.
Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions, I do appreciate it!
[QUOTE=hokie98;8108931]
I just don’t know. I’m about ready to just cry “UNCLE” and see if we can’t just sell the barn. I talked with the county permitting office. We’ll need to be 25’ off our neighbor’s property line to the side, and 100’ from the road. That puts us somewhere in the area where perhaps the septic drain field resides. The Health Dept is sending me a request to fill out to have an inspector come out (which they would need to do at some point anyway during the permitting process), but I’m still thinking about how having horses come up and down the hillside will get messy and muddy and we’ll constantly be fighting mud, slick hillside, etc. (I kept a friend’s mares last fall and sent them home after one apparently slipped, well, we guess that is what happened, and she bruised her pelvis…). Although, jawa, cow carpet is a great idea!
I ran the numbers…the amount it will cost us for the barn, installation, additional site work, etc., I could pay the local going rate of full board on a horse for well over 8 years! I wasn’t counting having such significant site work done when we started this process. I would love to have horses at home and I really would rather enjoy the work that comes with them, but there is something to be said for being able to leave town for vacation and not have to worry about finding someone to feed, etc. We have young kids, so maybe this is just not our time for having horses at home. My husband & I would love to build a house one day; this isn’t our “forever” home, so maybe we’ll just wait.
Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions, I do appreciate it![/QUOTE]
I think that is smart, give this some time, you may be better off boarding, for now, anyway.
There is so much more to keeping horses at home than most count on, until they try it and wish they had not.
You may change your mind later, after you have lived there and know more how it is working out and that is ok too.
The company that sold you the barn may help you re-sell it.
With everything going up, you may still come out ok on it and it is a nice barn, for whoever needs it.
[QUOTE=Bluey;8109295]
I think that is smart, give this some time, you may be better off boarding, for now, anyway.
There is so much more to keeping horses at home than most count on, until they try it and wish they had not.
You may change your mind later, after you have lived there and know more how it is working out and that is ok too.
The company that sold you the barn may help you re-sell it.
With everything going up, you may still come out ok on it and it is a nice barn, for whoever needs it.[/QUOTE]
Thanks! I’ve never actually boarded a horse before. As a kid, we always kept horses at home, and then we kept them at our “farmette” in VA for several years before taking a break (due to ‘grown-up’ responsibilities - i.e. corporate relocation). But, it shouldn’t be this difficult…which is maybe a sign I’m best to board for now and go from there. On the positive side, by boarding, it’ll free up alot of cash that would have otherwise been going into constructions/site work! Yippee!
So I may be asking alot of boarding questions on this forum…thanks again for everyone’s help!
I have to say OP that I agree, this acreage is just not suitable. That your neighbors may sell soon means they’re probably thinking “Resale value.” Makes it more likely to oppose a barn near their prop line even if they themselves wouldn’t mind. Doesn’t matter than the HOA is useless-- it exists and therefore is a lever that someone could pull if they don’t like your plans.
You will probably find that boarding has lots of advantages and enjoy it just as much as keeping at home.
That said: as a last-ditch hail-mary pass, you might want to see if there’s a loophole in permitting because it’s modular. Look at the county ordinances very carefully-- don’t just ask the permit guy. Every ordinance I’ve read will include very specific definitions (often in the first section, or else it will be incorporated into the text) that define what exactly they consider a “structure” or a building.
There could be something in those definitions that lets you claim the barn is not real property and not subject to permit. For example look at the ordinance that covers mobile / trailer homes – what permits are needed for them? Does your foundation and building fit those definitions better than the regular building? I don’t know what the foundation type is for this kind of barn, but if you can claim that it was fully assembled offsite and it is not permanently attached to a foundation, that might be an “out”.
Again, I’m not suggesting in any way that you sacrifice safety / building integrity in order to sidestep a permit. And it could well be that the above shenanigans make your barn uninsurable— and therefore you will lose ALL your investment when (not if) the big flood comes along. (vs recovering a good portion of your investment by selling it).
ETA: I say this because my company builds big windfarms. And our 500ft tall, 300+ton structures that are embedded in the ground and attached to 300cy concrete foundations are not considered real property. They’re personal property. (That said, we have to get building permits because of all the roads and excavation. )
That said: as a last-ditch hail-mary pass, you might want to see if there’s a loophole in permitting because it’s modular. Look at the county ordinances very carefully-- don’t just ask the permit guy. Every ordinance I’ve read will include very specific definitions (often in the first section, or else it will be incorporated into the text) that define what exactly they consider a “structure” or a building.
I was on a P&Z board for over ten years, you might find the regulations/requirements more stringent on a modular structure because of the possible concealed fabrication techniques of the structure
[QUOTE=HungarianHippo;8110099]
I have to say OP that I agree, this acreage is just not suitable. That your neighbors may sell soon means they’re probably thinking “Resale value.” Makes it more likely to oppose a barn near their prop line even if they themselves wouldn’t mind. Doesn’t matter than the HOA is useless-- it exists and therefore is a lever that someone could pull if they don’t like your plans.
You will probably find that boarding has lots of advantages and enjoy it just as much as keeping at home.
That said: as a last-ditch hail-mary pass, you might want to see if there’s a loophole in permitting because it’s modular. Look at the county ordinances very carefully-- don’t just ask the permit guy. Every ordinance I’ve read will include very specific definitions (often in the first section, or else it will be incorporated into the text) that define what exactly they consider a “structure” or a building.
There could be something in those definitions that lets you claim the barn is not real property and not subject to permit. For example look at the ordinance that covers mobile / trailer homes – what permits are needed for them? Does your foundation and building fit those definitions better than the regular building? I don’t know what the foundation type is for this kind of barn, but if you can claim that it was fully assembled offsite and it is not permanently attached to a foundation, that might be an “out”.
Again, I’m not suggesting in any way that you sacrifice safety / building integrity in order to sidestep a permit. And it could well be that the above shenanigans make your barn uninsurable— and therefore you will lose ALL your investment when (not if) the big flood comes along. (vs recovering a good portion of your investment by selling it).
ETA: I say this because my company builds big windfarms. And our 500ft tall, 300+ton structures that are embedded in the ground and attached to 300cy concrete foundations are not considered real property. They’re personal property. (That said, we have to get building permits because of all the roads and excavation. )[/QUOTE]
Thanks - it is a modular building, but to install it, they’ll pour 18" concrete footers around the perimeter, then it’ll be anchored to those footers. I’m not sure if that makes it more permanent or not. It’s modular in the sense it can be disassembled (they’re metal panels), and then reinstalled at another site. The more I think about it, the more I think boarding may be our better bet. There is also something to be said for all of the cash we’ll be putting out to install the barn with the site work, etc., (I think we’ll be talking about $45K to do it “right” and even then, I wonder if we still wouldn’t be fighting mud/slick slope issues), and considering I haven’t even bought a horse yet, nor a trailer…well, $45K in cash can go along way towards buying those things - heck, I could end up with a WAY nicer horse!
I feel for you OP. If you’d bought 10 acres with the three additional down in the flood plain as well you’d be in the same boat though, and maybe worse off if you’d put in a few feet of gravel and had a record breaking flood come through.
I guess if we learn anything it’s that flood plains can be major issues, sloping properties can have major issues, even a flat area can have hidden issues, and modular barns are wonderful lovely things but only as nice as the sites we have to put on them so get the site prep done first.
Thinking about the old guys I’ve known, the right one could do your dirt work for a decent price and do it well, but finding them can be difficult. That’s a nice modular and I hope you are able to re-sell easily.
OP if you do ultimately decide to sell the barn, post it on the local FB group “Triad Area Equestrians” ,and the one for the “NCHJA”. Both are private groups so you’ll need to join but I suspect someone on there would love to buy your barn.
[QUOTE=Charliezmom;8111304]
OP if you do ultimately decide to sell the barn, post it on the local FB group “Triad Area Equestrians” ,and the one for the “NCHJA”. Both are private groups so you’ll need to join but I suspect someone on there would love to buy your barn.[/QUOTE]
Thanks! Will do. I need to talk to my contractor next week and after I break the news that we won’t be able to put it up, then I’ll list it for sale. He’s super busy putting up these barns (heck, there was 3 month wait from the time I order the barn until it was delivered, so even manufacturing is slow), so hopefully it won’t be a problem to sell one that is ready to go!
If you did sell the barn, please do not limit the area to local only as once loaded on a truck or put into a container it can go anywhere… the MD barns are a commodity that has a value because people are aware of what it is.
If you end up staying at this location longer than you expect, you might do as we did … we build a clear span structure that could easily be converted into a garage or shop… the building actually appraised greater as a shop
You say you have other buildings that have been on site for years. Are any of them suitable for an “expansion?”
Usually permitting rules for “renovations” are different than new construction. The definition of renovation/addition is usually some number sq ft or percentage of area.
[QUOTE=pluvinel;8112661]
You say you have other buildings that have been on site for years. Are any of them suitable for an “expansion?”
Usually permitting rules for “renovations” are different than new construction. The definition of renovation/addition is usually some number sq ft or percentage of area.[/QUOTE]
renovations without having to comply with regulations other than permitting the work normally have a few limitations
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cannot exceed a fixed value of the appraised structure…usually around 50% otherwise it is considered a new structure requiring current standards to be incorporated (this is subject local ordnances)
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Usually the existing foot print cannot be altered… again subject to local regs
[QUOTE=clanter;8112678]
renovations without having to comply with regulations other than permitting the work normally have a few limitations
-
cannot exceed a fixed value of the appraised structure…usually around 50% otherwise it is considered a new structure requiring current standards to be incorporated (this is subject local ordnances)
-
Usually the existing foot print cannot be altered… again subject to local regs[/QUOTE]
The above are not universal truths.
Rules for additions/renovations are very much subject to local regs township to township, county to county.
In my area, there is a lot of “leeway” and subjective opinion for what is allowed in a “renovation”…and, of course, who you know in the zoning/planning commission.
I’m just offering ideas. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Rejections are free.
I would opt for the site up top where it’s flat. The best advice I got building our barn on our sloped property is to make it work so that you don’t have to hand-lead your horses in and out. Some type of chute or fencing so that they can come in/out of barn area on their own and in mud/ice you can close off the hill and they stay either in the barn area/paddock or down below and don’t have to navigate the steepest part. With creative fencing you can make a route for them without cutting down all the trees (definitely remove the brush) Your barn isn’t very tall/high profile. Offer to put in a nice line of trees or hedges between the barn and neighbor. It looks like their driveway would be between their house and your barn so I don’t think it’s that awful!! You need to get someone out there who specializes in farm planning/barn building and a GOOD excavator who does barn pads - ALOT on all types of terrain - get them out there for advice. Also a barn fencing contractor that fences alot of barn properties is a great person to ask for advice. Our entire property is on a slope. Our horses navigate the footing/rain/mud just fine. Even mild ice and snow. On severe ice I would limit their turnout or keep them in but even this past winter, it never happened. Figuring out a way for your horses to go in/out of your barn area without leading them is the BEST advice ever given to us. My horses can be turned in/out by my non horsey husband, horse sitters, etc. We never have to step foot in the mud or fields. Open their dutch doors and in they go/out they go. So think about placement of barn but also LOGISTICS. How will it work for you? Good luck!!
Are you assuming retaining walls to hold your pad site., perhaps building a cut out into the 6’ grade with more retaining walls (either side of walk up). You could use rail road type size planks to set up a stair type setup, but created for the larger walk of horse. Set 3’, then landing, another 3’, then landing etc. A easy walk up via, the cut out & may not eroad so fast… Grass or crusted material on level part
Keep seeking the solutions, but do it right & plan for the worst case situation…
