Small rated show and I heard the judge tell a person who was schooling her horse in a kimberwick that she would penalize her if she used it in a class.
My horse in a tom thumb Pelham was second in a class to a horse in a rubber snaffle. When having a discussion with the judge after the show he brought up the fact that both horses were equal but the rubber snaffle horse went well despite it’s rider and the bit was the tie breaker
Loving the discussion everyone.
Sad to hear that it can come down to a bit in the final placing but it is a VERY subjective sport… So I’m not really shocked. Sound like if she went in her shirt shanked Pelham I would be almost in a similar situation, but less likely to be penalized point wise. I’m not overly concerned about placing. But I do want to do well. Something about going thru that I hate always makes you want to ride well and ideally place well. But at the rate we are going I will truly be happy to just get a round all eight fences! That’s why we will be starting with a small local schooling show. Same reason she is doing dressage shows… Get out, get around and realize nothing bad will happen to her. She seems to have a lot of mental baggage. So I would much rather do that in a bit she likes and is relaxed in than something she hates or is worrying about.
Loving the discussion everyone.
Sad to hear that it can come down to a bit in the final placing but it is a VERY subjective sport… So I’m not really shocked. Sound like if she went in her shirt shanked Pelham I would be almost in a similar situation, but less likely to be penalized point wise. I’m not overly concerned about placing. But I do want to do well. Something about going thru that I hate always makes you want to ride well and ideally place well. But at the rate we are going I will truly be happy to just get a round all eight fences! That’s why we will be starting with a small local schooling show. Same reason she is doing dressage shows… Get out, get around and realize nothing bad will happen to her. She seems to have a lot of mental baggage. So I would much rather do that in a bit she likes and is relaxed in than something she hates or is worrying about.
[QUOTE=Köttbulle;8300594]
Loving the discussion everyone.
Sad to hear that it can come down to a bit in the final placing but it is a VERY subjective sport… So I’m not really shocked. [/QUOTE]
Actually it’s not sad at al and exactly how a tie should be broken. The horse that goes around close to the ideal of soft contact, pleasure to ride should be placed over the bigger bitter horse in a tie. Thats not to say a horse in a Pelham couldnt be softer,etc. this judge just felt the snaffle horse was closer to the ideal that day. VERY subjective would’ve been picking the bay over the chestnut because that’s what the judge likes. Then again, if the bay is the horse with better conformation and therefore better
looking? Again well within the realm of appropriate tie breaking.
[QUOTE=RugBug;8300733]
Actually it’s not sad at al and exactly how a tie should be broken. The horse that goes around close to the ideal of soft contact, pleasure to ride should be placed over the bigger bitter horse in a tie[/QUOTE]
I guess it is more ironic than sad. If I want to use something more conventional in the ring I would have to go to a Pelham … Yet I would still be considered riding in the stronger bit when showing against a snaffle bit. Yet I can’t get a relaxed horse in anything but a baucher, Pelham or a hackamore. Maybe the Hunter ring won’t be were we end up after all… But it’s seems more suited to helping address her anxiety issues than the jumper ring.
[QUOTE=Janet;8299883]
“Unconventional” is in the eyes and the brain of the judge.
I attended a judges seminar (Big time judges),
Some said they didn’t pay attention to the bit, unless the horse was resisting.
Others said they would ignore any horse that didn’t have a “plain” snaffle or pelahm, and, if there were “identical” trips, woud probably pin the snafle over the pelham.[/QUOTE]
Janet has introduced the magic word: “plain.”
Because a baucher is a type of snaffle, is it not? It’s just not a “plain” aka “conventional” snaffle. So not outright banned, just perhaps frowned upon by the more uptight of the hunter persuasion.
Functionally, a baucher is pretty close to indistinguishable from a full cheek with keepers. Granted, the full cheek has the extra steering and the danger of picking you up by your belt when using you as a scratching post.
Would rather see judges look at what’s inside the horse’s mouth than the shape of the rings. Seems wrong to me that a horse wearing a snaffle would be put up over one in a pelham, when the snaffle is a segunda or a dtw or a triangle. The baucher is dressage legal, the segunda, etc are not.
[QUOTE=Madeline;8301821]
Functionally, a baucher is pretty close to indistinguishable from a full cheek with keepers. Granted, the full cheek has the extra steering and the danger of picking you up by your belt when using you as a scratching post.
Would rather see judges look at what’s inside the horse’s mouth than the shape of the rings. Seems wrong to me that a horse wearing a snaffle would be put up over one in a pelham, when the snaffle is a segunda or a dtw or a triangle. The baucher is dressage legal, the segunda, etc are not.[/QUOTE]
TOTALLY agree.
[QUOTE=copper1;8300430]
Small rated show and I heard the judge tell a person who was schooling her horse in a kimberwick that she would penalize her if she used it in a class.
My horse in a tom thumb Pelham was second in a class to a horse in a rubber snaffle. When having a discussion with the judge after the show he brought up the fact that both horses were equal but the rubber snaffle horse went well despite it’s rider and the bit was the tie breaker[/QUOTE]
I have a judge that I hire frequently (LOVE her!) and she will automatically put at the bottom any horse with a kimberwicke, said she absolutely hates that bit and its an instant no, which most trainers that know her also know that and won’t show a horse in it. She also doesn’t like crop on the shoulder, and wants it behind the leg used correctly, and prefers tails black and not faded 
Here’s the whole rule (and the rule it replaced).
HU 125 TACK [CHAPTER SUBCHAPTER HU-4 ATTIRE, TACK AND EQUIPMENT,]
Change to read:
1.
Conventional snaffles, pelhams and full bridles, all with cavesson nosebands, are required.
[LIST=1]
The k-wicke is clearly unconventional. I sometimes wonder where the “unconventional” line would be if judges could look at mouthpieces. Segunda? Waterford? DTW? Triangle? Slow twist? Dr. Bristol? Corkscrew? What about Mikmars? Stubben Golden WIngs?
Perhaps hunters should follow the lead from dressage and show pictures of what is legal…
A judge would move a horse down in placing because its tail is faded from turnout?
[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8302469]
A judge would move a horse down in placing because its tail is faded from turnout?[/QUOTE]
A judge can move a horse down for whatever they damned well please. Honestly. They can.
[QUOTE=Madeline;8302455]
The k-wicke is clearly unconventional. I sometimes wonder where the “unconventional” line would be if judges could look at mouthpieces. Segunda? Waterford? DTW? Triangle? Slow twist? Dr. Bristol? Corkscrew? What about Mikmars? Stubben Golden WIngs?
Perhaps hunters should follow the lead from dressage and show pictures of what is legal…[/QUOTE]
I remember going to dressage shows when I was much younger. There was a steward checking bits at the arena. The steward would actually put a finger into each horse’s mouth to feel the mouthpiece and make sure it was legal. I don’t know whether or not that is still done, but it was a very efficient way of keeping people honest.
I know H/J rules don’t say anything about mouthpieces, but maybe they should. Surely the spirit of the rule is violated when someone uses a segunda or corkscrew bit in the hunter ring.
[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8302469]
A judge would move a horse down in placing because its tail is faded from turnout?[/QUOTE]
I don’t think she actually has ever moved the horse down, but that doesn’t mean she’s didn’t talk about it as a pet peeve (I think the exact words to me were “Clairol that shit for heavens sake, $5 and your turnout is improved 100%”).
Like I said, don’t think that she’s ever moved someone to the bottom just for that, but not to say if there was a close tie the dyed/non faded horse would come out ahead.
That was a eye opener for me and after that i started dying the tails…all mine are out 24/7 and fade pretty drastically. Honestly it does make them look SO much better, both the tail looks fuller/longer, and overall they just looked more polished. Never had any issues with manes, although one mare I’ll toss some dye on her forelock. Takes about 30 minutes and typically only has to be done 2x through the show season.
Yes, it’s absolutely still done. I believe the rule is 1/3 of the riders in any class have to be checked; when I’ve done it, that’s what I’ve been told to do. Bits, spurs, and whip length are all checked. They check in Eventing dressage, too, but I’m not sure of the frequency there, and in Eventing I’ve had it checked going in to warmup, versus in regular Dressage, where it’s done after the test, which has always seemed silly to me, as I’d think you’d want to know your whip was too long or bit wasn’t OK, and have a chance to change it first, but that’s a whole separate discussion 
[QUOTE=JenEM;8303067]
versus in regular Dressage, where it’s done after the test, which has always seemed silly to me, as I’d think you’d want to know your whip was too long or bit wasn’t OK, and have a chance to change it first, but that’s a whole separate discussion ;)[/QUOTE]
Or you can familiarize yourself with the rules - which really are not all that difficult to follow with regards to whip length and bit type - before you arrive at a show.
Now I don’t know if it would end up for the worse if the judge thinks you are using a hunter gag, but in the search and bit collecting, have you ever tried using one of the bits with hooks, only on the top set of hooks [So where the cheek pieces attach, but leaving the reins free sliding…essentially the same/similar non-leverage action as the Baucher]. I feel like one of the ones in my collection actually came like that - maybe a Myler full cheek.
I’ve spoken with several judges that consider snaffles with hooks to be the same as a kimberwicke as far as unconventional.
For Eventing dressage, 100% of the bits are checked.
[QUOTE=Pally;8303254]
Now I don’t know if it would end up for the worse if the judge thinks you are using a hunter gag, but in the search and bit collecting, have you ever tried using one of the bits with hooks, only on the top set of hooks [So where the cheek pieces attach, but leaving the reins free sliding…essentially the same/similar non-leverage action as the Baucher]. I feel like one of the ones in my collection actually came like that - maybe a Myler full cheek.[/QUOTE]
I have tried one. But the only one I have is a full cheek and it seems that the only way it fits almost correctly is with the hook part set as the reinattachment. I know you can get them in all different configurations. But for some reason full cheeks don’t fit her mouth right. If I use a keeper on them they sit almost like a weird Mickmar. I’m not a fan of riding without bit keepers on a full cheek. Just not worth the safety issues. I am also assuming that these types of bits are what they are referring to as Hunter Gags. It sure would be nice if they did have pictures. Or at least a full list of what bits that fall into the conventional and unconventional category.
I do agree with others who have posted that is seems that there should be some limit on the severity of the mouthpiece. It would be sad to know I lost an equal good round to a horse with double twisted wire dee ring, when we were going around a in a French link baucher. But that just seems to be the way of the Hunter ring.
Years ago I went to a schooling show and did a sort of mini medal. After the flat pause the judge came up to each of us in the line up and asked us what bit was in our horse’s mouth. My gelding at the time had a Waterford Pelham. He went beautifully in it (later he ended up jumping in a Mylar no pinch dee ring). I think the judge was shocked I knew what was in my horse’s mouth. Of course I knew I had put it there!! Sadly I’m not sure most Ammies know what is in there horses mouthes or why or how the bits act on the horses mouth. But I do have a but addiction… And have been playing around with bits for over 15 years now trying to figure out what makes the horse happiest. Happy horse happy ride.
