Bay, seal brown, or "brown"?

[emipou]

@Swallowtail4

I have a guess but want to confirm with the experts here… what do you think?

Summer coat:

Winter coat:

I’ve been avidly following an equine color genetics group on facebook. And while I am no expert, I can tell you this - bay is bay is bay. Genetically, it’s all the same. And your horse is definitely bay (brown) and not a faded black or any other color, because of the mealy color by the mouth.

[Peggy]

@Swallowtail4

He’s registered (KWPN) as “donkerbruin”, but I’m not sure if that’s “dark brown” or “dark bay”. His sire is registered as gray (“schimmel”… interestingly the word also means fungus/mold) and his dam as “bruin” (probably brown? if “vos” is bay?).

Vos is chestnut. Originally explained to me as like a fox. Otherwise I would have no hope of remembering that.

The horse in my profile picture is described as bay in his papers.

[Scribbler]

@Swallowtail4

He’s registered (KWPN) as “donkerbruin”, but I’m not sure if that’s “dark brown” or “dark bay”. His sire is registered as gray (“schimmel”… interestingly the word also means fungus/mold) and his dam as “bruin” (probably brown? if “vos” is bay?).

http://www.kellas-stud.co.uk/dictionary2.htm

This link should take you to a list of all the coat colours in several European languages. Donkerbruin is indeed dark brown in Dutch. But as the other posts have pointed out genetically it’s all bay.

[Bluey]

@Scribbler

http://www.kellas-stud.co.uk/dictionary2.htm

This link should take you to a list of all the coat colours in several European languages. Donkerbruin is indeed dark brown in Dutch. But as the other posts have pointed out genetically it’s all bay.

Following on that web site, there is a “musthroom” color out there also:

http://www.kellas-stud.co.uk/mystery.htm

Interesting.

[halt]

@Toblersmom

Try figuring it out when you add in brutal Texas sun fade and a complete inability to even speculate what colors are in the family tree. These photos are from my guy’s EMM trainer with permission, FB page Freeze Brand Ranch. Left to right is June, July, September, all housed outdoors in Texas with shelter. I need to take a current pic, right now his points look a lot more dark than they ever had before, but they are still not as black as the actually black (Percheron) and clearly bay horses out at the barn, even though his paddock is a lot shadier than theirs are. BLM paperworks says “black”, I’ve got no idea what he looked like gathered as a yearling that they called him black. I think he could be a “smoky” black (genetically black with cream modifier), can’t decide if I give enough of a crap to test him and find out.

At the auction, the auctioneers set up a patter, as they do, and when he came up they said, “Hip number 12, this here’s a 3 year old gelding out of Beatty’s Butte…pause…this says ‘black’, Bob, what color would you say that there horse is?”… pause… “I don’t rightly know, Steve, but he’s a sweet little mover, ain’t he, going in just a bosal and quiet as can be, blah, blah”

that’s interesting – cute horse… he almost looks like a dark liver to me, i’ve seen dark liver with darker points, but i am assuming that is sunfading and he is a bay.

have you chucked extra copper/zinc at him? IME it helps with sunfading especially for the horses that live in harsher climes.

[Scribbler]

@Bluey

Following on that web site, there is a “musthroom” color out there also:

http://www.kellas-stud.co.uk/mystery.htm

Interesting.

Yes I saw that! It looks like it is a dilute factor specific to one small population.

These things do mutate. The Frame Overo pinto pattern apparently mutated in horses of Spanish descent in North America (ie, mustangs). That’s why the British didn’t historically distinguish between tobiano and overo pintos. All their pintos were tobiano.

Si it’s possible to get color modification factors specific to certain isolated populations.

[Toblersmom]

@halt

that’s interesting – cute horse… he almost looks like a dark liver to me, i’ve seen dark liver with darker points, but i am assuming that is sunfading and he is a bay.

have you chucked extra copper/zinc at him? IME it helps with sunfading especially for the horses that live in harsher climes.

Thanks! His mind is as cute as his exterior, I love him to pieces no matter what color he is.

I haven’t tried any supplements yet, I just got him in September. Like the genetic testing, trying to decide how much effort and money I’m willing to put in to something that is purely cosmetic. Thinking about it, though, just for the heckuva it. Need to research when the best time to start would be, my understanding is that it’s far too late to meaningfully affect his incoming summer coat and I’m not going to bother if it won’t make a difference at this moment.

[Scribbler]

@Toblersmom

Thanks! His mind is as cute as his exterior, I love him to pieces no matter what color he is.

I haven’t tried any supplements yet, I just got him in September. Like the genetic testing, trying to decide how much effort and money I’m willing to put in to something that is purely cosmetic. Thinking about it, though, just for the heckuva it. Need to research when the best time to start would be, my understanding is that it’s far too late to meaningfully affect his incoming summer coat and I’m not going to bother if it won’t make a difference at this moment.

The coat is the external reflection of internal health. If the horse has a mineral deficiency it should be corrected for overall health not just for coat colour.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

This will help:
http://www.skintdressagedaddy.com/2018/04/06/50-shades-of-brown/

[Toblersmom]

@Scribbler

The coat is the external reflection of internal health. If the horse has a mineral deficiency it should be corrected for overall health not just for coat colour.

Yes and no. Yes, “coat condition” is a reflection of overall health. I don’t know that sun fading or (possible) preventability of sun fading by mineral supplement necessarily falls into that category, though. The ability of hair follicles to produce pigment and the type of pigment it produces is very impacted by genetics, clearly. Maybe horses that fade more readily than others have cells that aren’t as able to incorporate mineral into a light-stable pigment if there is a normal and healthy amount of mineral in the diet, but can if there’s an excess around, but there’s no other impact on the horse’s health.

Siamese cat hair follicles can only produce stable pigment when the skin is a titch cooler than average cat body temperature. That’s why the kittens are born pale (because they are warm all over inside Mom), and they are only heavily pigmented on their points as adults (because the periphery is slightly cooler than the trunk). Doesn’t mean you need to keep the cat in a refrigerator to keep it fully pigmented and “healthy,” and it doesn’t meant there’s something wrong with the health of a Siamese-marked cat that lives as an outdoor barn cat in Minnesota that has a darker overall color than its brother who lives in Florida.

[Scribbler]

@Toblersmom

Yes and no. Yes, “coat condition” is a reflection of overall health. I don’t know that sun fading or (possible) preventability of sun fading by mineral supplement necessarily falls into that category, though. The ability of hair follicles to produce pigment and the type of pigment it produces is very impacted by genetics, clearly. Maybe horses that fade more readily than others have cells that aren’t as able to incorporate mineral into a light-stable pigment if there is a normal and healthy amount of mineral in the diet, but can if there’s an excess around, but there’s no other impact on the horse’s health.

Siamese cat hair follicles can only produce stable pigment when the skin is a titch cooler than average cat body temperature. That’s why the kittens are born pale (because they are warm all over inside Mom), and they are only heavily pigmented on their points as adults (because the periphery is slightly cooler than the trunk). Doesn’t mean you need to keep the cat in a refrigerator to keep it fully pigmented and “healthy,” and it doesn’t meant there’s something wrong with the health of a Siamese-marked cat that lives as an outdoor barn cat in Minnesota that has a darker overall color than its brother who lives in Florida.

Fascinating! I had no idea about that with Siamese!

[emipou]

@Toblersmom

Try figuring it out when you add in brutal Texas sun fade and a complete inability to even speculate what colors are in the family tree. These photos are from my guy’s EMM trainer with permission, FB page Freeze Brand Ranch. Left to right is June, July, September, all housed outdoors in Texas with shelter. I need to take a current pic, right now his points look a lot more dark than they ever had before, but they are still not as black as the actually black (Percheron) and clearly bay horses out at the barn, even though his paddock is a lot shadier than theirs are. BLM paperworks says “black”, I’ve got no idea what he looked like gathered as a yearling that they called him black. I think he could be a “smoky” black (genetically black with cream modifier), can’t decide if I give enough of a crap to test him and find out.

At the auction, the auctioneers set up a patter, as they do, and when he came up they said, “Hip number 12, this here’s a 3 year old gelding out of Beatty’s Butte…pause…this says ‘black’, Bob, what color would you say that there horse is?”… pause… “I don’t rightly know, Steve, but he’s a sweet little mover, ain’t he, going in just a bosal and quiet as can be, blah, blah”

Smoky black looks the same as black, only a test would be able to tell you.

I was thinking red, until I realized they were all the same horse. The middle picture makes me think a very sooty buckskin (some of them can look pretty black). But I would also believe black.

[samwoww7]

Looks like a dark bay to me.

I think breed registration authorities don’t pay much attention to coat color accuracy. My OTTB is a bay, but he is registered with the Jockey Club as a dark brown.

[IPEsq]

@halt

that’s interesting – cute horse… he almost looks like a dark liver to me, i’ve seen dark liver with darker points, but i am assuming that is sunfading and he is a bay.

have you chucked extra copper/zinc at him? IME it helps with sunfading especially for the horses that live in harsher climes.

Looks liver chestnut to me too.

OP, I think your horse is bay. On the darker side as far as summer coat, but still bay. He seems to have a pretty typical dark and reddish winter coat.

[MsM]

I think the OP horse is a bay too. I wonder if the color terms will ever get to sync with the genetics(once those are fully understood.)
I owned a bay with a mealy nose, a red horse with a mane and tail that was black, brown, and silver, a liver chestnut, and now a sooty palomino. I seem to specialize in odd colors.