Bedding Use Conundrum

[pluvinel]

There are 2 ways to price a product/service:
1- Cost-Plus
2- Value-in-Use

The “cost plus” model is to price the product/service at “cost plus some margin/profit.” You have done a good analysis of your costs. So add some profit margin (10% is not unreasonable) and do a rate increase across the barn.

The “value in use” model…eg., buyers will pay a premium for a needed service, and the demand stays fairly stable regardless of price because there is so much demand. And it seems that demand will continue to increase as other boarding options are eliminated…which infers an opportunity to INCREASE boarding price (and I’m a boarder).

What you’re saying is that you are 23% BELOW your nearest competitor (competitor in the economic sense). Why?

Regardless of the model, it seems logical to just do an across the board rate increase to make your business economically viable.

[MissAriel]

I understand the premise of charging the messy horses for the additional bedding, plus there is precedent with charging hard keepers for extra grain/hay. However, it seems that the consensus is an across the board increase is the way to go and will be more palatable than additional al a carte fees.

[IPEsq]

IME, a la carte doesn’t work well long term. There are a couple of reasons. One is it creates a management headache of keeping track versus just providing what the horse needs (whether that be food, bedding, more frequently dumped water buckets, etc.). The other is that it winds up giving the boarder a choice. Oh, my horse needs extra bedding? I don’t want to pay for it. So, horse winds up living in puddles of pee.

Then there’s the math issue of every low bedding user may be a higher cost somewhere else such as with food or blanketing or other needs and vice versa. You may need to constantly adjust your “average” calculations based on your current clientele. This means adjusting the budget overall. And it may mean you need to raise board in order to keep a margin. That you basically have no margins now definitely means you need an across the board increase. Calculate this to take into account for a certain amount of labor or supply intensive clients.

[DHCarrotfeeder]

@Miss Motivation;8918302

These ‘heavy consumers’ of bedding also increase my labor costs and disposal costs proportionate to the increase in bedding.

We recently started using a stall shifter machine for cleaning stalls. While it does save shavings and reduces wear and tear on our bodies, it also gives you the flexibility to control your shavings usage.

With the stall sifter you first shovel out wet shavings into the muck and filter the solid manure out of the remainder using the sifter. There is always your judgment on how much to immediately muck, and with a messy horse you can choose between partially stripping it or re-using the slightly dirty shavings. Basically, you can re-use the shavings as much as you want. We use urine neutralizers so it mostly boils down to cosmetics.

Then you can meter out the shavings more/less equally per horse and if the boarder decides they want to consume more shavings each month they can do so. Or not. It’s easier if they’re bagged shavings but I suppose wheelbarrow loads could be done instead.

[specifiedcupcake]

How often are the stalls cleaned? Have you tried doing twice-daily to see if that affects waste/replenishment volumes, since 50 horses in stalls 20 hrs a day is a LOT?

BTW, I’m loving OP’s detailed analysis- great food for thought although having ONE boarder who I love dearly and her annoying-as-hell horse whose hobbies include breaking things, atomizing his poop and eating two bales of hay per day… I will never run a boarding operation.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8927797]
Not to mention I do think that you would need 2-3 wheelbarrow loads of ‘loose’ to get the same amount compressed. JMO.

I am still convinced the math is off. There is no way a horse in a 12x12 stall is using 30-48 shavings bags worth a month unless it is being stripped daily. Even then.[/QUOTE]
Well, because I was curious about this I looked at some actual numbers this morning.
OP, I owe you an apology. Your numbers were not near as crazy as I thought they were. I use both bagged shavings and bulk sawdust and my experience is that the compressed contents from the bag seem to fill so much more than even a heaping wheel barrow of bulk saw dust.

I have one of those two wheel large wheel barrows. It says it holds 8cu ft.

Per the bags the fine Tractor Supply shavings bulk up to 5.5cu ft. and the flake shavings bulk up to 8cu ft.

That means the OP is not really off in comparing one (large size) wheel barrow to one bag of shavings.

[WildandWickedWarmblo]

Buying loose shavings cuts the costs of bedding by a huge amount, as I showed one BO where I boarded.

But yes, paying more for deep bedding is acceptable. Just don’t judge the boarders by the least messy horse, judge by the average horse use of bedding.

My horses also got more hay and I paid extra for it. Funny though, the BO at every barn then put other horses out to finish off what my horses left in the paddock.

[fordtraktor]

[QUOTE=WildandWickedWarmbloods;8929092]
Buying loose shavings cuts the costs of bedding by a huge amount, as I showed one BO where I boarded.

But yes, paying more for deep bedding is acceptable. Just don’t judge the boarders by the least messy horse, judge by the average horse use of bedding.

My horses also got more hay and I paid extra for it. Funny though, the BO at every barn then put other horses out to finish off what my horses left in the paddock.[/QUOTE]

what is wrong with that? wasting hay is bad. I would much rather it be eaten.

I have a few picky horses and whatever they won’t eat I always give to my dumpster-diving pony so it doesn’t get wasted. Better than letting it sit on the ground and turn into stinky mud! If your horses are getting the amount you request and pay for, and your horses are eating what they want out of it first, I don’t see this as the BO cheating you at all.

I don’t do hay surcharges so I don’t have an agenda other than that I dislike wasting!

[Alpha_Mare]

My two cents - I think if there is a reason you can justify a higher price (and I would call it a ‘surcharge’) for a couple of horses then it is ok to charge more for bedding. If the horse is on stall rest that is easy to explain, if the horse is just really messy then you have a one on one conversation with the boarder. (maybe check if there is any fixable reason the horse’s stall is so messy? if the horse is not happy with location/nervous, or has a medical condition needing treatment?)

In my case I had a mare with Cushings who had very limited turnout AND as a result of the condition drank and pee’d much more than an normal horse. I wanted her to be comfortable in her stall so I paid $100 more per month (and this barn used straw) AND put pellets in the middle to keep it dry. My cost.

I agree with the others that you need to charge enough to be happy to be running the barn.

[DHCarrotfeeder]

[QUOTE=WildandWickedWarmbloods;8929092]

My horses also got more hay and I paid extra for it. Funny though, the BO at every barn then put other horses out to finish off what my horses left in the paddock.[/QUOTE]

Waste hay costs money, fills manure piles, and makes manure slower and more difficult to move. Some horses never touch fallen hay until their hay bag is empty, and if you never let them get to scrounging you lose all of the fallen hay. So the BO is minimizing the cost of removing the leftover hay as well and saving a bit to feed the others.

Not saying your BO was acting in that specific way, but there are some very practical reasons they could consider it.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8929063]
Well, because I was curious about this I looked at some actual numbers this morning.
OP, I owe you an apology. Your numbers were not near as crazy as I thought they were. I use both bagged shavings and bulk sawdust and my experience is that the compressed contents from the bag seem to fill so much more than even a heaping wheel barrow of bulk saw dust.

I have one of those two wheel large wheel barrows. It says it holds 8cu ft.

Per the bags the fine Tractor Supply shavings bulk up to 5.5cu ft. and the flake shavings bulk up to 8cu ft.

That means the OP is not really off in comparing one (large size) wheel barrow to one bag of shavings.[/QUOTE]

I think she is; unless she is personally weighing on a scale and measuring EVERY wheel-barrow that goes out, chances are it isn’t actually a “full load” so to speak. And dumping a compressed bag into a wheelbarrow to see if it’s equatable won’t work because the shavings are still compressed tightly together.

I’m pretty certain that the math is off somewhere. 30-48 bags of shavings (!!) a month equals 1 to 1.5 bags of new shavings every day depending on the horse. Can you imagine? If I added a bag to a bag and a half every day to a horse’s stall I think by the end of the month I’d have completely filled it stem to stern, aft to fore, and every which way to Sunday.

Loose shavings do not compress down well when loading up a wheelbarrow. I’ve never gotten a “full bag’s” worth of shavings from just one wheelbarrow load of loose material.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8929621]
And dumping a compressed bag into a wheelbarrow to see if it’s equatable won’t work because the shavings are still compressed tightly together.[/QUOTE]

I was simply using the number on the bag. Tractor supply puts a compressed size and an expanded size. According to them their flake shavings once expanded equal the volume of my large wheel barrow.

Edit to add - I do agree that that many bags of shavings per month does seem like a ton of bedding. Though I know horses, that if left inside all the time would probably need that much bedding to have a stall that looked fresh.

[clanter]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8929621]

I’m pretty certain that the math is off somewhere. 30-48 bags of shavings (!!) a month equals 1 to 1.5 bags of new shavings every day.[/QUOTE]

OP said they went through a 55 cu/yard load every 7 to 8 days… that would equal 4 cu/yd per horse for a month… 4 cu/yd = 108 cubic feet… if a compressed bag of shaving is 8 cubic feet then they are using an equivalent of about 14 bags of shaving per horse each month (3.5 bags per week)

Given these horses are up 20 hours per day, I can see them using that much.

But I believe if they were to use at least some pelted shavings in the wet spots the consumption would drop about 25% or more

We cut our shavings usage by about 75% by using mostly pelted (our stock is only up at night or during inclement weather)

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=clanter;8929711]
OP said they went through a 55 cu/yard load every 7 to 8 days… that would equal 4 cu/yd per horse for a month… 4 cu/yd = 108 cubic feet… if a compressed bag of shaving is 8 cubic feet then they are using an equivalent of about 14 bags of shaving per horse each month (3.5 bags per week)

Given these horses are up 20 hours per day, I can see them using that much.

But I believe if they were to use at least some pelted shavings in the wet spots the consumption would drop about 25% or more

We cut our shavings usage by about 75% by using mostly pelted (our stock is only up at night or during inclement weather)[/QUOTE]
I misread; I thought she said she was using 30-48 bags a month per horse?

14 bags a month is much more manageable; that I could see especially if they are in for 20 hours…

Having horses in for 20 hours a day is, at best, from a management perspective, kind of like shooting yourself in the foot. It doubles nearly all of your costs from labor to hay to shavings… Not to mention it’s SO much better for the horse not to be in all day.

[vali]

I can sort of see both sides of this having had the horses at home and having them boarded. I used to be at a barn that bedded on the light side but was otherwise a good facility, and I had one horse out of my three that really needed more bedding to avoid hock sores. I even asked the owners if I could pay extra to bed that one more deeply, but they didn’t want the hassle. That eventually was one of the factors that led us to move. Bedding really deeply is lovely, but expensive and labor intensive. Now that I have them at home I can see which ones really use and need more bedding, and it’s not always the biggest horses. Some of them use their outdoor runs as their primary bathroom area, and some are pigs in the stall. I can see paying extra to bed more deeply, but I dislike the barns that charge extra for hay.

[fordtraktor]

The OP says in the original post a few horses are using 48 TSC bags of shaving equivalent per month. I still propose that is very high. Maybe the average is smaller but some of her horses are using obscene amounts of bedding and others must be using next to nothing if clanter’s math is right. I am not a math person and haven’t attempted it.

[mountainhorse]

I agree with the ‘raise it across the board’ for all boarders in regards to bedding (and all other costs!). I would also ask why you feel you need to charge so much less than the other (few) barns in the area? Why not charge the ‘going rate’ in your area?

[Miss_Motivation]

Just to catch up on this thread:

First, thanks everyone for the thoughtful comments. COTH is such an incredible resource for getting information, opinions, and just general feedback and points of view that no one can gather on their own… I appreciate everyone’s input!

Second, I measured shavings use by both weight and volume. Weight of a wheelbarrow load of our bulk shavings, compared to weight of bagged shavings, and also bought bagged shavings of a known volume and filled wheelbarrow with same to arrive at a volume of bagged shavings that is equivalent to what is in the wheelbarrow from bulk source.

As I had hoped, both by weight and by volume, we have a consistent unit of measurement to use for calculations. My 12 cu ft wheelbarrow actually holds over 13 cu ft of bulk shavings as measured and weighed. Call to wheelbarrow mfg confirms their volume claim is based on loose materials to molded horizontal line well below where we fill the wheelbarrow. In other words… my math held up measured several different ways, including converting cubic yards of shavings delivered into cubic feet, then adding up cubic feet per wheelbarrow, X wheelbarrow loads per week, to have a difference of cubic feet of shavings delivered per week to stalls compared to cubic feed delivered per week by shavings vendor of only about 1%. In other words… the math looks really accurate on this.

Third- isn’t it weird how horse people can be so obsessed about something like this? Although… there is a definite money aspect involved!

Fourth- I’m doing my shavings study for another full month to be sure I don’t have anomalies that need consideration.

Fifth- emphasizing again: most of these horses are in their house for 22+ hours a day. Not ideal, but the reality of where we are.

Sixth- have announced across the board increase that still leaves us well under the competition.

Seventh- although I love having a barn, there is no way I could ever justify what I’ve done (buy the place, spend huge sums fixing it up, try to maintain it well, etc.) from a financial perspective. I completely understand why people sell their farms to developers.

So… I think I’ll go step outside my home office and ride my horse!

[dexhol]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8929621]
I think she is; unless she is personally weighing on a scale and measuring EVERY wheel-barrow that goes out, chances are it isn’t actually a “full load” so to speak. And dumping a compressed bag into a wheelbarrow to see if it’s equatable won’t work because the shavings are still compressed tightly together.

I’m pretty certain that the math is off somewhere. 30-48 bags of shavings (!!) a month equals 1 to 1.5 bags of new shavings every day depending on the horse. Can you imagine? If I added a bag to a bag and a half every day to a horse’s stall I think by the end of the month I’d have completely filled it stem to stern, aft to fore, and every which way to Sunday.

Loose shavings do not compress down well when loading up a wheelbarrow. I’ve never gotten a “full bag’s” worth of shavings from just one wheelbarrow load of loose material.[/QUOTE]

I have a big swede who gets a bag and a half a day, nearly every day. Some days I’m lucky and only have to add one, and every once in a while I’m lucky enough to not have to add any, but that’s rare. He’s just a big pig, and I’m meticulous about picking through, but those flake shavings always result in some waste. They’re in from 4pm to 9am and bedded on the deep side, but not crazy (maybe 2 1/2 to 3 bags in a fully stripped 12x12 stall). Stalls cleaned when they go out at 9am, again at 10pm for night check. I go through less with bulk sawdust for sure since it’s so much more sift-able (as are the TSC small flake bags), but the BO doesn’t believe me re: how much $$$ she’d save if we switched to bulk, so I just keep using those bags.

I don’t find 30-48 bags a month crazy. Our 10hh pony and around that size donkey go through about 10-15 bags each a month. When we had 2 16hh +/- TB’s boarded they went through about a bag a day, maybe 20-30 bags a month skipping a day adding here or there. To be fair, I’ve been lucky enough to be saddled with all the freaking pigs for some reason.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=dexhol;8952176]
I have a big swede who gets a bag and a half a day, nearly every day. Some days I’m lucky and only have to add one, and every once in a while I’m lucky enough to not have to add any, but that’s rare. He’s just a big pig, and I’m meticulous about picking through, but those flake shavings always result in some waste. They’re in from 4pm to 9am and bedded on the deep side, but not crazy (maybe 2 1/2 to 3 bags in a fully stripped 12x12 stall). Stalls cleaned when they go out at 9am, again at 10pm for night check. I go through less with bulk sawdust for sure since it’s so much more sift-able (as are the TSC small flake bags), but the BO doesn’t believe me re: how much $$$ she’d save if we switched to bulk, so I just keep using those bags.

I don’t find 30-48 bags a month crazy. Our 10hh pony and around that size donkey go through about 10-15 bags each a month. When we had 2 16hh +/- TB’s boarded they went through about a bag a day, maybe 20-30 bags a month skipping a day adding here or there. To be fair, I’ve been lucky enough to be saddled with all the freaking pigs for some reason.[/QUOTE]

Just curious- do you pay extra for the shavings? And does the BO know how much you are putting in your horse’s stall?